The Siege of Lal Masjid: Day 5 of Operation Silence

LiveBlog documenting Day 5 of the crack down on Lal Masjid in Islamabad. Keep posting your Comments. You can read another of our earlier posts about Operation Silence (Days 1-3, and Day 4), outside Lal Masjid!

IMB Team

July 8th 09:35 AM
A RELAXATION IN CURFEW IN G-6 WILL BEING AT 10 AM AND LAST ATLEAST 2 HOURS. Half an hour from now, G-6 will be open for outsiders and insiders access. The area around Lal Masjid however remains cordoned off to a greater extent.

Last night a lot of news came in. A leading figure in the operation passed away in the hospital. More headway was made on the southern side of Jamia Hafsa. Three loud explosions were heard as far as Rawalpindi. Unconfirmed reports claim that the operations today and yesterday have caused 250 to 300 militants’ death. There is a greater number of students inside than that which is being reported. Six escaping militants have been caught by the forces securing the parameter outside.

July 8th 06:15 AM
The news channels are now full of talk of a the death of Lt. Col Haroon ul Islam, but there is a lot of misinformation with it too. Shaheed Haroon was severely injured on Friday after, and airlifted to CMH that very moment. He did not die in today’s action. His struggling self was in the hospital for that past days and undergoing treatment and a series operations. He lost the battle with death on the operating table and embraced Shahadat.

No wonder Special Services Group‘s lads are considered the bravest in the country. The details of his death were revealed by an ISPR spokesperson who say that he and another of his team mate were covering a hole in the wall of Lal Masjid from where women and children were rushing out. They were fired upon and got taken down. They were rushed back into the lines where a chopper airlifted them Central Military Hospital. Read more about the nations brave SSG commandoes here.

This however is just a reference photo of how a proper SSG commando looks like.

July 8th 04:50 AM
In a major off-scene development, there is a confirmation from the military personnel that,

The heavy firing late Sunday night caused great damage to a large area of Jamia Hafsa; the SSG Commander Haroon Islam, who led the operation on Friday operation, lost his life late Sunday night.

75094545.jpgThe Jamia Hafsa inmates remain defiant, as there are fresh reports that there are a lot more of them in the basement of the mosque. While sporadic firing has taken place from time to time during this night, the sad news of the passing away of SSG Commander Leut. Col. Haroon Islam who was leading the Special Forces conducting Lal Masjid operation in CMH has gripped all of us with shock. Leut. Colonel is quite a high rank! According to reports, he was injured on Friday and airlifted immediately there after to CMH. There has also been a major advancement on the southern side of Jamia Hafsa.

The weather in Islamabad has taken a turn for the worse as thunder storms and rain continue since late yesterday night. An urban theater full of vegetation, accompanied by bad weather makes for one of the worse kinds of places to be, fighting for your lives, in. Lets raise our hands for a dua for the shuhadaa!

Aye Wataan Kay Shaheedo, Tumhain Salam! This however some unknow soldier with an M-4 Grenade launcher in civies.

July 8th 01:50 AM
Abdul Aziz while talking to ARYOne World news reporter over a mobile phone said,

We are being targeted, and we are not firing back.

We are low on food and our mobile battery life is ending.

Musharraf will be caught one day and I will grab his collar and ask him why he was so brutal with us.

There is no good estimate of how many have died.

I want to have an ‘open trial’ (he meant transparent… yeah right!) for the world to see and I will prove my innocence. If we are not able to do that, we should be hanged.

We are innocent and we will die if it the need arises.

All of the students inside are willing to die with me.

We do not want to bend over in front of anyone, as Chaudary Shujaat offered us to do earlier today. An inquiry should be started…

The firing continues, but the explosions have ended. The explosions have resulted in a fire. The area has dense vegetation.

July 8th 01:20 AM
Three massive explosions in the curfew zone on the Lal Masjid have been head as far as G-10! The fire and the fighting has restarted, just about 10 minutes ago!

As it seems, the inmates of Lal Masjid come out, start firing from inside the walls and the military replies with guns and shells… but these were three very loud explosions with equal time intervals, and one can only pray to God for the safety of human life! Good God, we need some sensibility to this! :(

July 8th 12:20 AM
The firing has ended, and all is quite now, but the question remains… where are the fricking choppers? The pictures that were posted earlier showed us that there was alot of vegetation around the campus. It would be wise to have choppers on a 24/7 recon over the building. But I think there is a fear of Lal Masjid having shoulder launched surface to air missiles (SAM) inside the building. The famous Stinger! If not that then fuel cost of their flight might be one major concern. Bleh! Just get it over with quick, damn it!

July 8th 12:10 AM
Residents of F-6 are reporting they heard 6 explosions and the last one being quite loud. These sounds are going to drive us all crazy :@

179 Comments so far

  1. Anayst (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 2:32 am

    APC (All Parties conference) condemned current actions against Red Mosque by Pakistan Army.Believe it or not but Pakistan Army has committed one of the second greatest blunders in history by having chosen a Mosque as battle-field to decide its victory.(First blunder was the war of 1971) Before Afghanistan was even attacked by USA, army had already decided a unanimous surrender within a time frame of a meeting presided by current President. It would have been better, if the police and local authorities were left to handle the situation on ground and have civil authorities make decisions for a better solution of Red Mosque. Now considering the fact that “Code of Silence” has been broken in APC (All parties Conference) by majority of its members against uneffective policies of the Government. Meeting outside Pakistan was much effective as members of opposition were viewed as relieved from continuous pressure due to harassment of dictator like Govt in Pakistan.

    Programs on private channels are being broadcasted with interviews from various people of religious affairs who seem reluctant to totally oppose the current actions by the President. They are scared due to arrests being made or for the reason that Govt is constantly threatning to take actions against the besieged people inside the Red Mosque.

    APC is one of the efforts to put pressure on the Govt to start negotiation without any further blood-shed. It is general consensus in the public that Army should withdraw and facilitate the relief efforts for saving life of women and children stuck in hostels inside Red Mosque for almost a week without water,food,electricity,gas and medicines. It is in complete violation of human rights and there should be a serious inquiry. Human rights organizations are being prevented from interfering due to an exagerrated threat by some officials that the people inside are all out terrorists and don’t deserve basic necessities of life. Media is not being allowed near the scene of clashes between Army and armed men inside the Red Mosque. There are great chances of cover up of casualities by the Army.

    Commander leading the operation was killed when he was trying to plant a bomb to make a hole in the mosque.Troops are being rotated on duties on daily basis, but still the besieged and armed fighters look more healthier than fresh looking army.

    Whenever there are appeals of water bottles from inside the Red Mosque and Govt doesn’t provide them with water, it rains. It has rained two time, and a possiblity that they are collecting water in buckets and drinking from it.

    Seventh day is on and crisis still lingers.

  2. Phil (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 2:40 am

    Sean, talking to yourself again? :/

  3. sean (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 2:42 am

    Sorry Phil, that really was a bit pathetic, and I’m sure many of your readers can see that. That really was not a theological argument against the Jihadis that would persuade anybody. Frankly I could do better. Zawahiri would wipe the floor with you. Try again.

  4. Phil (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 2:45 am

    Like I care :)

  5. sean (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 2:58 am

    Thanks for the confirmation Phil. That’s what I was manipulating you to say. Good kid. Night night. Sleep tight.

  6. Phil (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 3:55 am

    Yeah, yeah, you are now going to lay claim to your wizardry with words. Have a nice life.

  7. Aamir Ali (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 7:12 am

    Sean and Nailcreek:

    Islam and Jihad are clearly defined and those who abuse them, are reminded of their transgressions. That is the argument against “abuse”.

    I also think foreigners like you are part of the problem, I detect considerably prejudice in your post, while you were “pretending” to care for us. You dont know anything about Islam and please stop exploiting incidents.

  8. Malcolm9X (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 9:07 am

    SEAN: “What theological argument a devout Muslim who believes in the true and peaceful person of Islam would employ to counter the Jihadi theology of the extremists?”

    Assuming that it is not a rhetorical question, I’d submit that there is no shortage of references in Quran and Sunnah for those who would seek knowledge with an open mind. God has blessed us all with intellect, the ability to differentiate between right & wrong and conveyed His guidance through His Prophets and the Scriptures. To satisfy your curiosity, the following should suffice.

    I’ll quote Dr. Anis Ahmad, of Islamabad’s International Islamic University and a leading religious scholar in his interview with Boston Globe:

    “Probably no other Islamic idea is both so widely misunderstood in the Western world and so regularly abused in the Islamic world,” he said. “Jihad lies at the heart of Islam, yet is perverted by Muslims who use teachings of the prophet to justify monstrous deeds.”

    But Ahmad added that jihad’s meaning was also perverted by Westerners “wanting to portray Islam as a religion of fanatics and suicide bombers. Non-Muslims seem even more obsessed than our own fanatics with this idea of holy war. It is so easy to twist meanings to make Islam seem inherently violent.”

    In Ahmad’s view, jihad is an inspirational idea, a word signifying the struggle of good against evil. Modern Muslims, he said, take it to mean that an individual should constantly strive to be a better person, struggle to follow the peaceful precepts of Islam, or deeply commit oneself to worthy social causes, campaigning for better schools or immunization programs, for example.

    “Jihad is not about blowing up buildings or causing airplanes to crash from the sky. And just because some violent Muslim calls his campaign ‘jihad,’ that does not make it so,” he said.

    Prophet’s saying that “the true jihad is only that which exalts God’s word, which is truth.” The Qur’an condemns as an ultimate act of blasphemy actions that attempt to dismantle the very fabric of existence by destroying and spreading ruin on the Earth. Elsewhere it states that God has willed Muslims “to be a community of moderation.” (Qur’an 2:143)

    According to Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad PBUH, the best jihad is one in which a person strives against himself; however, when a jihad requires physical exertion against others, certain rules must be followed.

    There is no better example than the one set by the Prophet himself. When he led his army to Mecca from where he and his companions had been driven out, in-spite of the overwhelming force, not a single drop of blood was shed in victory. To top it off, he proclaimed as sanctuary the compound of his personal worst enemies (including those who had mutilated the bodies of his loved ones). He promoted kindness both in his teachings and in his actions.

    When fighting an unjust enemy, no matter how unjust they are, it is forbidden by Islam that their retreating forces are mutilated, tortured or slaughtered. In the Quran, Allah says, ‘And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors.’

    Transgressing the limits means to kill women, children, the elderly, the sick, monks, worshippers and other noncombatants. It also means to recklessly kill animals, burn crops and vegetation, pollute waters and destroy homes, monasteries, churches and synagogues.

    As for suicides, Hadith offers a clear example: “Once, when a man killed himself, the Prophet said, ‘He is a dweller of the fire.’ When the people expressed surprised, he said, ‘A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dweller of paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the fire.'”

    Now I’ll offer a few references from the Quran about war and the circumstances under which it is allowed (even if Jihad is interpreted as ‘holy war’). It becomes quite obvious the primary reason to go to war is in self defense and to end oppression.

    [2:190] AND fight in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.

    [4:75] And how could you refuse to fight in the cause of God and of the utterly helpless men and women and children who are crying, “O our Sustainer! Lead us forth [to freedom] out of this land whose people are oppressors, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, a protector, and raise for us, out of Thy grace, one who will bring us succour!”

    [4:111] Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.

    [8:61] But if they incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing!

    [9:12] But if they break their solemn pledges after having concluded a covenant, and revile your religion, then fight against these archetypes of faithlessness who, behold, have no [regard for their own] pledges, so that they might desist [from aggression].

    [16:90] Behold, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good, and generosity towards [one’s] fellow-men; and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy; [and] He exhorts you [repeatedly] so that you might bear [all this] in mind.

    [22:39-40] Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succor them – Those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, “Our Sustainer is God!” For, if God had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, [all] monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques – in [all of] which God’s name is abundantly extolled – would surely have been destroyed [ere now].

    [25:63] For, [true] servants of the Most Gracious are [only] they who walk gently on earth, and who, whenever the foolish address them, reply with [words of] peace;

    [42:39-40] …and who, whenever tyranny afflicts them, defend themselves. But [remember that an attempt at] requiting evil may, too, become an evil: hence, whoever pardons [his foe] and makes peace, his reward rests with God – for, verily, He does not love evildoers.

    [49:9] Hence, if two groups of believers fall to fighting, make peace between them; but then, if one of the two [groups] goes on acting wrongfully towards the other, fight against the one that acts wrongfully until it reverts to God’s commandment; and if they revert, make peace between them with justice, and deal equitably [with them]: for verily, God loves those who act equitably!

    The way to deal with the extremists is to fight this holy war by engaging in the struggle within. As Trever Adams exhorts: “Instead of sitting at home and cowering with fear of these terrorists, beat them at their own game. Fight them in two ways. 1) Don’t fear and don’t let fear keep you from living. Fear is their weapon, destroy it, conquer it. 2) They want a Jihad, give it to them. Better yourself. Learn new things. Be a better neighbor and a kinder stranger. Take up a new hobby. Find interest in a life besides your own.”

    I hope your curiosity has been satisfied. If your interest is in a debate then I apologize; I don’t have the time for that.

    It is unfair to ask this group of sincere young people who are busy in their Jihad against the misguided amidst them, sharing close to real time information about a situation where a lot of lives are at risk, struggling with a complex political situation around them to come up with religious references on the fly. You have acknowledged the “voices of reason, moderation and humanity” among participants. Let’s allow them to continue doing their good work.

  9. Kami (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 10:29 am

    Dear SCEAN,

    Came in late and saw your posts, seems like you changed colours. To your question, “Jihadis represent true Islam?”. well who can answere that. Let me put some more questions on the table;

    1) Does Catholic represent true christianity or protestants?

    2) Orthodox Jews represent true judiasm or mainstream ones?

    3) Does Kuo Klux Klan represent Mississipe or Martin Luther King?

    4) Does Nazi’s represent the Germans or the social democrats?

    In Islam these jihadis are a relatively new phenomenon, nurtured and watered during the Afghan war against USSR. altough they had relatively few allies in the local population but had powerful friends in Washington. Ask Congressman Charlie Wilson about his role in shaping the Afghan Jihaad. Tom Hanks is portraying him in a soon to be released movie. Also, do you American airlines used to offer discount ticket to gather these Jihadis from around the world and dumped them in Afghanistan & Pakistan and one of them was Bin Laden. Mentally screwed up like Hitler, Missoulini or who was the KKK leader or the Pope who burned women as witches. Ordinary people everywhere want to earn an honest living and take care of their kin, our people are poor but they are the most hardworking in the world. The poor guys dont even know about NY let alone think about jihaad against US. So please dont generalize. This jihadist problem is much as your doing as it is ours, we had a chance dealt them death blow in Afghanistan after 9/11, but your screwed up leader choose to attack IRAQ, where ther were no JIHAADI organization, and now Iraq is in chaos like Afghanistan and is brewing / exporting its merchandize to the whole middle east, well done, smart thinking.

    As for your talk of doom, and your absurd counting of Nuclear bombs, its too early for that. A crazy man by the name of Hitler, killed millions and nearly destroyed the whole world, and then there was Stalin and Vietnam and the list goes on. Bin Laden is no Hitler or Stalin, he has no state and great majority of muslims are not crazy about him. He is just enjoying his time in the lime light, thanks to his greatest advisary. How Bin Laden and his look alikes can be defeated? The answere lies in your capital, if you continue to choose jokers as your president then this juggling act will never end.

    Now coming back to your question with a historic perspective.

    Arabs after prophet Mohammed gave up paganism and their tribes knit together and for the first time in their history they managed to form an state. So, like any race in the history be it Romans, Egyptians or Mongols, they started to expand. They sent armies as was the norm then, but there was a difference, they were traders by nature and were intrigued by the contemporary more developed civilizations i.e. Romans in the North and Persian (Iran) in the East, they had a passion to learn. They expanded very fast and at the same time embraced Aristotle and Socratese. Hence, from savages their civilization reached their peak in Baghdad, Spain and Egypt. Baghdad was destroyed by Ganges Khan, its libraries and universities burned to the ground. In spain for 800 years they flirted with secularism and bringing together of religions. They gave refuge to the sufferers of the spanish inquisition. Indeed, Undlus was a place were jews (who were persecuted in the early days of Islam) and christians found refuge. Eventually this utopia was destroyed by a fundamentalist Spanish King and something beautiful was lost. India was attacked by many muslim nations like Arabs, Turks and finally the Mughals (Mongols) ironically they converted after destroying Baghdad. Mughals embraced India like no other, they promoted secularism and invented Sitaar and Tabla. They had Hindus as prime ministers and Army Chiefs and they also gave Taaj Mahal to the world.

    So my dear the purpose of this lengthy lecture is to emphasise that Muslim Nations that conquered foreign lands were like just other Nations in history. Europe has many christian nations who had their ambitions and their wars / carnage. Behind every war in history there is an ambitious King or Queen and muslims are no different. So rest assured that muslim expansion in history is not due to a Jihaadi philosophy inherent in their religion. They were just ambitious and smart.

    Even today if you go to Middle East Arab christians and Arab Muslims get along pretty well. They were comrade in arms in PLO and in Bath Parties of Iraq, Syria and Egypt.

    My dear war, chaos and emotional trauma make people intolerant and bring out the worst in man, espeaciaaly todays wars where so-called collateral damage causes more innocent casualities then the combatents, there is no doubt people are angry but thats not because of their religion.

  10. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 11:54 am

    @Adnan: Wecite is held hostage by Lal Masjid.

    ahahha. Maybe Wecite is a leftist wing of Lal managment since Mullah-Military alliance always worked in Pakistan?

    Fauzan: the reason I mentioned wecite here that that “Those who live in glass houses don’t throw stone on others”. Better you clear the filth lie among chor managment of Wecite then you would sound better to crticize lal managment.

  11. IUnknown (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 12:00 pm

    @KAMI, i thought u r a bit more wise. U have quoted such a thing abbt Iqbal , well i think u shud be ashamed of doing so.
    We have no respect for our heroes. Therefore, we admit that the heroes are those persons like Shahrukh khan, salman khan , blah blah. Who keep dancing like “She-male” and spend their whole life after a girl.
    Duh! U need to get a life.

  12. Adnan Siddiqi (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 12:01 pm

    @IUNKNOWN you have missed the esssence of Islam i.e. you dont need a Maulvi to pray or say you Namaz-e-Janaza.

    Kami,Actually you need to understand whos declared MULLAH these days. ANyone who dares to speak about namaz, start wearing shalwar above ankle and other basics then he automatically become MULLAH[in offensive manner] for those who are always up in Mullah bashing.

    It’s NOT true that just ANYONE could offer prayers. Just like not any software engineer could become a Project manager, similarly not anyone could lead namaz. There are certain rules which are followed. I tell you one thing for sure that “anyone” who leads a prayer become IMAM of that particular namaz. So technically you can’t say that non-molvis can lead prayers.

  13. IUnknown (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 12:02 pm

    @KAmi, i want to talk to u privately. Is it possible?

  14. sean (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 3:30 pm

    Thanks Kami for answering my question. I am aware of the definition of Jihad as internal struggle, so are the self proclaimed jihadis curently occupying that Mosque. I personally prefer your definition. Unfortunately they do not, and they too can cite Suras, particularly the ninth. It is they, not me that you need to convince. Good luck. You asked me some questions and, although I am neither Christian, American, Jewish or German I will endeavour to answer.

    “1) Does Catholic represent true christianity or protestants?”

    I don’t follow any religion so I’m not really qualified to answer. However within both strains there are fundamentalists with whom I would take issue. Timothy McVey, the Oklahoma bomber, was a fundamentalist Christian and I would expect all Christians to denounce him and his beliefs. As indeed they did, loudly and clearly. Your example, the Spanish Inquisition, is indeed relevant. A disgusting organisation that displayed all the attributes of fanatical religious brutality that I detest. If such a group existed today, and especially if they seemed to be growing in strength and acting all over the world, I would be asking Catholics the same questions, to refute the fanatics in their midst. And, as it happened, that refutation took place some centuries ago. Torquemada and his religiously inspired terrorist organisation are ancient history. Actually, It’s an interesting equation, Catholicism is to Christianity as Jihadism is to Islam. I sincerely hope not. And you should too.

    2) Orthodox Jews represent true judiasm or mainstream ones?

    Sorry no idea, I would prefer the mainstream ones myself. And I do call on Jews to refute the kind of fundamentalist Judaism espoused by many of the west bank settlers.

    3) Does Kuo Klux Klan represent Mississipe or Martin Luther King?

    Neither. The KKK had it’s roots among poor uneducated white racists in the Southern States. Again a disgusting organisation of dangerous fanatics who killed wth a bible in one hand and a rope in the other. The Reverend Dr King, himself a man of the Church struggled courageously amd peacefully against those who the KKK represented. He died for his cause. Indeed it was through the ceaseless efforts of the civil rights movement that the KKK was eliminated. Racism is an evil that exists everywhere, and as with all evils, it must be strenuously opposed. The KKK now represents nobody. Martin Luther King however represents all that is good about humanity. Wouldn’t you agree?

    4) Does Nazi’s represent the Germans or the social democrats?

    Well, again I’m afraid they don’t really represent anybody any more, except a few lunatic skinheads in the East. However during the 1930’s and 40’s the Nazi Party certainly did represent the Germans in the sense that they were the government. And we all know what the consequences of that were, don’t we? In fact, here is the perfect example of what happens if fanatacism is not recognised and confronted. The tragedy of the War that followed, tens of millions died, could have been avoided had we seen and acted on the danger, earlier. Instead, Churchill was ignored and PM Chamberlain pursued the disastrous policy of appeasement…. the rest is History. Let’s not be fooled again. In a nuclear world aanother world war would make the last look like a picnic.

    All your examples are interesting and seem to me to prove the necessity of confronting fanaticism before it gets out of control. The point you are missing is that what’s happening in the Red Mosque, is not happening in a European cathedral or a Bhuddist temple or in another century. It’s happening in Pakistan right now and it’s not as if its an isolated incident. It’s for reasons that have nothing to do with: the KKK, the Nazis, the Pope or poor Dr King, but have everything to do with your circumstance. For the angry people in the Red Mosque it absolutely IS all about religion and you know as well as I do that they are merely the tip of a vast iceberg. I do follow the news from Pakistan, and things look pretty out of control to me. I sincerely hope that you can pull yourselves back from this and acheive the peace and stability you crave. But unless you confront your own heart of darkness, your equivalent of the KKK or Nazism (your examples, remember), I fear it will elude you. Really, I wish good luck and courage to all true peace loving people in Pakistan in the dangerous times ahead and hope my fears remain but fears.

    And thank you for letting me post unmoderated on your blog. That puts you a cut above many western blogs I know.

  15. IUnknown (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm

    SEAN, since the president musharraf has been given the task by the bush , to eliminate all of the “islamic militants” from pakistan. He is duely following the orders and doing every thing he can.
    This is really shamefull but true.

  16. sean (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 4:48 pm

    Yes UNKNOWN, that does seem shamefully spineless. Doesn’t he have any ideas of his own? I’d be curious to know what policies he would be following if he weren’t too busy being Bush’s poodle. My, he will miss his master next year when Bush leaves the Presidency…(if he survives that long)…and then the next poor fool gets to sit in the White House and have all the world’s problems blamed on him or possibly her. Strangely though, even when you think you know who to blame, the problems don’t simply disappear. You also need solutions and I really don’t think America can help you wth this, either by supporting or withdrawing support from Mush. Even if it is all Bush’s fault, you are the ones who will have to live with the consequences. The truth is you are on your own, responsible for your own country, and for your and your children’s futures. Blaming others for one’s own misfortunes is fruitless and childish and guarantees that you will never find a solution.

  17. IUnknown (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 5:54 pm

    well, wat can we do?? against tanks and armed forces?
    Mush has been used to do this all the time , in Wana, Wazirstan , in Balochistan and now in Islamabad.

    America doesnt want to help us rather wants to bring us in trouble and let us stay there untill we are finished.

    He was doing really good before 9/11 but all of sudden he became coward and bowed out in front of Powell. Since then, its the disaster till now.

  18. Omar (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 7:49 pm

    Well said Sean. People need to own up to their problems and mistakes. At the end of the day wether there are any external influences present or not we as Pakistanis or our leaders make those decisions.

    I understand people’s love and feeling of loyalty to their religion. But they need to take a step back and see wether these people in the red mosque are representing Islam appropriately. I think not. They have kidnapped and killed innocent people. They have destroyed public property. They are now holding many people hostage. All this is NOT what Islam teaches us. Theses people do NOT represent Islam. So please stop blindly defending these terrorists.

  19. Kami (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 8:25 pm

    @SCEAN Thanks for all your concerns, courtesy round the clock sensational media, things don’t look that good from a distance but they are not that bad either. We do have a dynamic middle class, we do have our music and poetry and a very energetic young generation. In our history, no dictator no matter how strong was unable to hold absolute power. We eventually take them down within 10 years. Also, thanks to Mush, we have now a very vibrant media that is getting stronger by the day.

    About Lal Masjid show down, here are some positives – Islamabad is a small city in the context of Pakistan and this episode has remained confined to one sector of that small city, you see no discontent in any of our major cities on this issue e.g. Karachi, Lahore , Rawalpindi and Hyderabad etc. People are behind their govt on this, they might disagree on the modus but they agree on the goal except for a very small minority that will remain stone head. So there is no pending doom or break down of civil society, thanks anyway for your well wishes.

    As for Bush and Mush, I agree neither Bush is responsible for all our ills nor Mush is toeing the line just to please him. Both are doing which they blv is best. However, it’s a modern day reality that, we are living in a world that is inter-dependent and inter-related, where a small incident in one part has its effects on the other thousands miles away. So as the “only super-power” tread softly, because you are treading on my feet. This status comes with a heavy responsibility, you may not be the cause for all my ills but you might have something that cures or kills me. Believe me you don’t need a smart guy or genius or a neo Con to run your affairs, just elect someone with a cool head and a bit of wisdom. That’s the advantage you have over me – you can choose.

    In the end, the questions I raised didn’t need a reply, they were just to emphasise that such deductions about any cast or creed are an exercise in futility. Let me mention some traits that are common to all;

    1/ Women like to shop.
    2/ Everyone loves music – contrary to what mullahs say or do.
    3/ Guys like to chill out on a couch and watch sports, and of course waist their time talking politics.

  20. sean (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 10:14 pm

    Actually Kami, I love to shop too. And sorry I don’t have a vote in America and rest assured I’m no fan of Bush or any of the latest crop of wannabe’s currently vying for leadership. Otherwise I agree with everything you say, especally point 3. And hey, I knew they were rhetorical questions, it’s just they were so revealing, I couldn’t help myself. Like it or not, I’m rooting for people like you and hoping you soon get the right to choose that I have. One caveat though; you have to fight for that right, nobody’s just going to give it to you and always beware those who wish to take it away.

  21. sean (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 11:28 pm

    MALCOM9X, Sorry I fell asleep last night and missed your post. One point I have to agree. This is a wonderful group of, I didn’t realise they were young, people commenting here. You are correct. I would not wish to distract them from their important task. In fact, I wish I could help.

  22. Kami (unregistered) on July 9th, 2007 @ 11:30 pm

    Thanks, I feel the sincerity in your wishes. As for the right to choose, in fact we never gave it up after 1947, its just the matter of safely securing it in our hands, like a football player and as you said, “beware of those who wish to take it away”. By the way I dodged a bullet once.

    Well its sad that guys like you dont have a vote, I blv it was jefferson or Washington who once said, “If 50 million people say a wrong thing it is still a wrong thing” and thats the glitch in democracy, at the same time one guy can make a difference, thats the positive.

    One more thing, democracy or not, I believe that pharoahs of indoctrination and ideologs of all sorts have learned to use the very tool that is essential to strengthen democracy i.e. media / TV. I salute the producers of the movie, “Wag the DOG” for their far sightedness, or perhaps, may be they are behind all this mess.

    Here is some mellow Pakistani music for you;

    Take care

  23. sean (unregistered) on July 10th, 2007 @ 12:10 am

    Thanks for the music. I’m touched (sniff.. no honestly..pff, you’ll never believe me). As for the Pharoes of Spin (as we Brits would call them) manipulating the credulous cretins in the Mass Media, you can say that again! That’s why I’m here explorng what you have to say. Thanfully the internet has given those of us with inependent minds the ability to seek and find for ourselves.

    Please watch out for those bullets.

  24. KAMI (unregistered) on July 10th, 2007 @ 1:37 am

    Man! you are a Brit …. and all the time I took you for a American. I take back a lot of what I have said. The irony with you is, unlike majority of ordinary Americans you know whats happenining, you know the history, you know the people but still somehow you got dragged into this mess.

    Keep on blogging and continue to challenge people to think freely.

  25. KAMI (unregistered) on July 10th, 2007 @ 1:44 am

    “A VISITOR FROM EUROPE” how could i have missed that. I guess to much night time blogging. i must go to sleep now

  26. KAMI (unregistered) on July 10th, 2007 @ 1:47 am

    @IUNKNOWN thanks for asking, but I believe it would be impossible simply because of the logistics.
    However, my advice to you is, form an informed opinion about the issues. As we grow up we are given a set of values, a belief system by our parents / society around us. But as we develop a conscience and feel an urge to find the truth then we have to challenge every thing that we have inherited, including our faith and the history we have been taught. It’s weak to defend Muslims because you are a Muslim or defend Punjabi or Sindhi just because you are too.

    Before you practice a faith you have to challenge it, after all there is no fun in being a borned Muslim or Christian.

    I give you examples of some controversial issues. The conquest of Sindh by Mohammed Bin Qasim or the persecution of jews in early Islam or Mahmud Ghaznavi’s exploits. All these topics come in text book version but that’s necessarily not the truth, in fact sometimes its just bull shit.

    To expand further, look into Science & religion, why they are always in conflict? Evolution or Creation? Ideology of Pakistan or is there any? Indian history, why don’t we own Asoka or Chundurgupt after all they were great Sawati Kings. Why after Zia-ul-Haque we have cut our roots and want to live in a cultural void?

    Go find the truth…..

  27. Omar (unregistered) on July 11th, 2007 @ 7:11 pm

    You make a good point Kami. Zia-ul-Haq promoted a culture of disowning anything not related to Islam. Be it historical figures as you mentioned or cultural events like Basant.
    Paksitanis should realize that anything that originated on this soil ( Islamic not) is part of our roots, history and tradition. We need to embrace it and be proud of it. And yes, we CAN be good muslims without giving up our cultural identity.

  28. Omar (unregistered) on July 11th, 2007 @ 7:13 pm

    correction : In the above parenthesis its ( Islamic or not).
    I guess I need to proof read before I post. :-)

  29. Muhammad Omair (unregistered) on July 16th, 2007 @ 9:11 pm

    I think the demands of people of lal mosque were right. but they tried wrong way to implement that.
    now the question is pakistan came into being on basis of islam. and million of people were martyerd for that cause. and we were unable to implement islam from parliment. PML (N) tried through parliment but were unable to do so . MMA has also tried but were unable through parliment. if we would be unable to do through democratic way these type of accident will happen in future as well.
    so we have to think about all these thing and work as nation to implement islam in pakistan. and should make a role model islamic state to all the world. that islam is relegion of peace and we we peace loving not terroist

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