Pakistan Supreme Court reinstates chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhry
Pakistan Supreme Court Friday reinstated chief justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry. The short order was pronounced by justice Khalilur Rehman Ramday, the head of the 13-member full court of the supreme court . The court also declared invalid the presidential reference against chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhry. While the reinstantement order was unanimous, the verdict about the reference was a 10-3 majority decision.
WE WON!!…. INSHAALLAH THIS WILL BE THE DEFINING MOMENT IN THE HISTORY OF PAKISTAN.
MUSHY SHOULD STEPDOWN, AND GIVE WAY TO THE TRUE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE OF PAKISTAN. IT WILL BE QUITE SHAME FULL OF HIM IF HE STILL STAYS ON THE SEAT.
SHAME ON YOU MUSHARAF, SHAME ON YOU..
I too was against Musharraf (particularly in this CJP scenario). But amazed I am to see the reaction of people. How emotional we are! :)
If things are moving in right direction. Let it be, let it be.
I am happy for Pakistan — this is a defining moment. The rule of law holds, and the constitution is worth more than the paper it’s writ upon, for Pakistan it is worth all.
I am going to disagree that Musharraf should step down — you should vote him out instead!
this could be turning point
lets c wat happens now
nail in the coffin of dictator.. those responsible for filing this ludicrous reference should be given exemplary punishment .. so that no dictator in future tries to bulldoze any pillar of state like that …
Not only the army should go back to the barracks,but the corrupt politicians,the myopic maulvis,the vaderras,should be removed from power.Only sincere,honest,well educated people should be elected to run the affairs of the govt.
Not people like Mr 10%,also the president and prime minister should be elected only for two terms.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9B05FE49-BAF0-4D6E-BE73-800042CEF90D.htm
Die Musharraf Die!
GREAT NEWS,CHIEF JUSTICE REINSTATED,JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE FOR THE CHIEF JUSTICE.THE ARMY SHOULD GO BACK TO THE BARRACKS,THE AFFAIR OF THE GOVT SHOUDL BE RUN BY,SINCERE, HONEST, INTELLIGENT,WELL MANNERED, CULTURED PEOPLE,NOT BY THE VADERRA,CORRUPT POLITICIANS,THE MYOPIC MAULVIS.
GREAT NEWS,CHIEF JUSTICE REINSTATED,JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE FOR THE CHIEF JUSTICE.THE ARMY SHOULD GO BACK TO THE BARRACKS,THE AFFAIR OF THE GOVT SHOUDL BE RUN BY,SINCERE, HONEST, INTELLIGENT,WELL MANNERED, CULTURED PEOPLE,NOT BY THE VADERRA,CORRUPT POLITICIANS,THE MYOPIC MAULVIS.
Its very strange that so many people objected against Mushraf, Nawaz Sharif attacked supreme court and forced Justice Sajjad Ali Shah to leave his seat but no one likes to protest against the bastered Nawaz Sharif, its very very strange indeed
Son of Soil Sahib,
Not sure if Nawaz did what you said he did, but the general people from the big province do not like any urdu speaking ruling them. hehe
No matter if Musharraf’s decision was legal or illegal, the way our people reacted says it all.
I hope things get better, especially when we have Afghans and Indians on each side trying to break us. China and America is also putting pressure on us, and here we have “educated” people going on the streets against our army.
Assalaamualaekum
DEMOCARCY DOES NOT MEAN,THAT HONEY AND MILK WILL FLOW IN EVERY CORNER OF PAKISTAN.WE HAVE SEEN THE PREVIOUS DEMOCARTIC ELECTED GOVT OF BB AND MIAN.IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE,THAT LEADERS ARE BEING SUPPORTED ON THE BASIS OF THEIR ETIHINIC GROUNDS,RATHER THAN THEIR SKILLS AND TALENT.
I AM NO SUPPORTER OF MUSHARRAF,BUT HIS PERFORMANCE HAS STILL BEEN BETTER THAN BB AND MIAN.ARMY SHOULD NOT INTEREFERE IN POLITICS, BUT UNFORTUNATLELY, THE POLITICIANS ARE SO CORRUPT,THAT ARMY GOT INVOLVED FROM TIME TO TIME.
IT IS THE CORRUPT POLITICIANS, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS,THE CORRUPT POLITICANS SHOULD BE BARRED FROM TAKING PART IN POLITICS.
DEMOCARCY DOES NOT MEAN,THAT HONEY AND MILK WILL FLOW IN EVERY CORNER OF PAKISTAN.WE HAVE SEEN THE PREVIOUS DEMOCARTIC ELECTED GOVT OF BB AND MIAN.IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE,THAT LEADERS ARE BEING SUPPORTED ON THE BASIS OF THEIR ETIHINIC GROUNDS,RATHER THAN THEIR SKILLS AND TALENT.
I AM NO SUPPORTER OF MUSHARRAF,BUT HIS PERFORMANCE HAS STILL BEEN BETTER THAN BB AND MIAN.ARMY SHOULD NOT INTEREFERE IN POLITICS, BUT UNFORTUNATLELY, THE POLITICIANS ARE SO CORRUPT,THAT ARMY GOT INVOLVED FROM TIME TO TIME.
IT IS THE CORRUPT POLITICIANS, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS,THE CORRUPT POLITICANS SHOULD BE BARRED FROM TAKING PART IN POLITICS.
DEMOCARCY DOES NOT MEAN,THAT HONEY AND MILK WILL FLOW IN EVERY CORNER OF PAKISTAN.WE HAVE SEEN THE PREVIOUS DEMOCARTIC ELECTED GOVT OF BB AND MIAN.IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE,THAT LEADERS ARE BEING SUPPORTED ON THE BASIS OF ETIHINIC GROUNDS,RATHER THAN THEIR SKILLS AND TALENT.
I AM NO SUPPORTER OF MUSHARRAF,BUT HIS PERFORMANCE HAS STILL BEEN BETTER THAN BB AND MIAN.ARMY SHOULD NOT INTEREFERE IN POLITICS, BUT UNFORTUNATLELY, THE POLITICIANS ARE SO CORRUPT,THAT ARMY GOT INVOLVED FROM TIME TO TIME.
IT IS THE CORRUPT POLITICIANS, WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS,THE CORRUPT POLITICANS SHOULD BE BARRED FROM TAKING PART IN POLITICS.
Yet another plus for Musharraf. He resurrected our financial institutions, gave us independent media, held elections, cleaned up the army and now by default an independent judiciary. When historians look-back I am sure they will find more positives than negatives.
But the defining moment is now, will he take the stand against the extremist threat or will he chicken out and leave it for the next elected government. Despite this setback I think his position is much better than July 10, 2007, this judgement will all also bolster Pakistan image outside and should enable us to move forward.
The growing Talibanization threat is upon us, it’s the need of the hour that all political parties come out with a clear cut statement to deal with this issue. The carrot only policy has miserably failed, the question is, will everyone including Musharraf rise above his/her petty interests and take a unified stand on this. Can we do something good collectively?
Surely, not every body thinks that this country will be presented back to the looters on a plate; there always be someone watching and I hope in the future it will be the media and not the military. For now the status quo should remain for a while no need to create chaos or frenzy. Sabar elections will happen.
@JWH @IUNKNOWN and other slogan mongers, come on you can do better than that, show to the world taht you can also in engage in conversation and can give arguments. Just try I know you can do it!!
@Kami , I belive you are the same person who had the courage to defend use of chemical weapons against women and children. Now you are using twisted logic to give the credit of hundreds of thousands of common men struggle to a dictator. I am not sure how can one argue with you?.
@PM What Chemical weapons and when? Why should I defend something that never happened. However I hold some persons responsible for Hafsa incident, including Mr & Mrs still alive and well.
By the way, what hundreds of thousand people you are talking about? This was a struggle by some dedicated and committed lawyers and an independent media. As for the the political parties they are currently unable to bring people on the road in any sbstantial numbers let alone thousands, because the people dont trust them and thats why Musharraf is still in power.
We never had such a vulnerable dictator in our history, surviving just because of some very impotent politicians.
THE VIOLENT LAL MASJID ARE THEMSELVES TO BE BLAMED FOR THIS CARNAGE.NO GOVE WOULD HAVE TOLERRATED ALL THIS,THEY COULD HAVE ADOPTED PEACFUL MEANS OF PROTEST AND SPREAD THIER MESSAGE THRU OUT PAKISTAN. THEY THOUGHT OF ESTABLISHING A STATE WITHIN ISLAMAABAD,WHAT TYPE OF ISLAM ,THEY WEREE TRYING TO TEACH,VIOLENCE, HATE,POISIONING THE MINDS OF THE YOUNG STUDENTS.TEACHING THEM TO BECOME TERRORIST IN THE NAME OF ISLAM,WATCH THE VIDEO, WHEN THEY DESTROYED THE GOVT BUILDING AND PROPERTY. THE GOVT SHOWED GREAT RESTRIANT,AND GAVE THEM ENOUGH TIME TO BEHAVE PROPERLY,BUT THEY WERE BENT UPON DEATH AND DESTRUCTION,IT IS REALLY UNFORTUNATE,THAT WHAT HAS HAPPENED,WHAT THE RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH THE VIOLENT MAULIVIS.
THE GOVT SHOULD NOW ENSURE THAT THIS DOES NOT SPREAD OUT TO THE OTHER MADRASSA,SO INNOCENT LIVES, COULD BE SAVED.
THE YOUNG STUDNETS SHOULD BE TAUGHT PATIENCE, TOLERRANCE, INSTEAD OF CREATING A BATTON CHARGING GIRLS BRIGADE AND TAKING LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.NOBODY IS HAPPY WITH THE BLOODBATH WHICH OCCURED,WHILE PURGING OUT THE MILITIANT ELEMENTS FROM THE MOSQUE.
@SHAUKAT I agree with you, but please dont shout. We have discussed Hafsa story in detail in other sections of this blog. Lets move forward! and discuss the future
THE CORRUPT POLITICIAN,WHO WERE SAILING ON THE BOAT OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE,WILL TRY TO FIND MEANS TO KEEP THEM AFLOAT.YOUNG BREED OF NEW EDUCATED PPOLITICANS ARE NEEDED TO RUN THE AFFAIRS OF THE COUNTRY,NOT THE AANGOTHA CHAPS,NOT THE JAGIRDARS,WADERRA,MYOPIC MAULVIS.
IT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COUNTRY THAT YOUNG NEW FACES ARE BROUGHT IN,THE POLOTICAL PARTIES SHOULD HAVE THEIR OWN PARTY ELECTIONS TO PROVE THEIR SINCERITY TOWARDS DEMOCARCY,TRUTH IS ALWAYS BITTER,SOME OF THE POLITICAN MAY NOT LIKE IT.THE REAL PROBLEM LIES WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTERS,WHO LIVE IN THE RURAL AREAS UNDER EXTREME POVERTY.THEY HAVE TO BREAK THE SCHACKLES OF THE JIAGIRDARS AND STOP THE EXPLOITATION.
@KAMI,I AM NOT SHOUTING,I HAVE GIVEN MY POINT OF VIEW.AS FAR THE FUTURE IS CONCERNED,I HAVE GIVEN MY OPINION ABOUT IT ALSO, THANKS.
@SHAUKAT when you type in CAPS that means you are shouting, I just want you to avoid that, its not considered polite in blogging. However, I agree with you 100% on the malaise plagueing this nation since independence i.e. the Jagirdaar, Mullah and Millitary nexus. Now, a particular section of Mullahs is trying to break away from this triangle and create an even more dangerous nexus of its own and we must not let that happen, otherwise, we will revert to jirgaa system and the supreme court will become irrelevant.
@Shaukat, What Kami meant by shouting was the use of all CAPS in your messages (the contents of which sound quite agreeable to me :)
@Kami,I am not good in typing,that is the only reason.i was using CAPS,thanks for makinng me aware about it.
@Kami,I am not good in typing,that is the only reason.i was using CAPS,thanks for makinng me aware about it.
@Kami,I am not good in typing,that is the only reason.i was using CAPS,thanks for makinng me aware about it.
I am sorry for the repeat posting,i don’t understand,why it happened.
@SHAUKAT No problem buddy there is always the first time, keep on contributing, we need people like you to voice their opinions and stand firm against screwed up ideologs who want to emotionally blackmail the whole nation and even use this landmark event in our history to promote their agenda. They contributed nothing towards the struggle but want to reep the fruits of somebody elses efforts.
@Kami, i think u have been greatly influenced by idiot media.
Or ur father is an army general
OR ur son of Musharraf.
If u arent any of these, then im sorry to say that u need to open ur eyes and stop sailing with all this Mush Crap.
This is really beautiful poem. Check this out.
http://dl1u.savefile.com/7d9f1888fa5bc1dbf9f6e29df2f32913/Shaheed_Abdul_Rashid_Ghazi_-_Aaakhri_nazam_-few_days_before_shahadat.mp3
@Kami, i think u have been greatly influenced by idiot media.
Or ur father is an army general
OR ur son of Musharraf.
If u arent any of these, then im sorry to say that u need to open ur eyes and stop sailing with all this Mush Crap.
This is really beautiful poem. Check this out.
http://dl1u.savefile.com/7d9f1888fa5bc1dbf9f6e29df2f32913/Shaheed_Abdul_Rashid_Ghazi_-_Aaakhri_nazam_-few_days_before_shahadat.mp3
This defeat to Musharraf is his biggest victory. Only wiser one’s will understand why. Im sure he is sitting on his couch sipping Karak chai and enjoying every moment of it.
He has given Pakistan the gift which no other leader, politician or general can ever give. Now i can proudly say that atleast our courts are no more corrupt as being predicted by the CJP lawyers.
You seem to have very little knowledge of Musharraf personal life, I have met him and know he never sips a “karak chai”, I do know what he might want to sip at this moment. :)
@IUnknown , Kami may not be any of these you mentioned. My guess is he is serving army guy in ISPR.
I dont doubt your relations with the great man. Karak chai was just used mahawaratan.
Tell you what, why dont you give him a KARAK salute from my end next time you meet him :) Also tell him he is the only leader today in Pakistan who’s words i trust. Whatever said and done, one thing is for sure that man never lies IMO.
@ iunknown: can you give some more info about the poem, please? It is beautiful but I don’t understand Urdu. And who sings it?
Thanks
Claude
@claude: are u a news reporter???
its in the voice of Abdul Rasheed Ghazi (RHA).
Every ones knows it.
@ IUnknown: I am not a news reporter, I am only interested in citizen journalism, and Pakistani Metroblogging blogs are example of excellent citizen journalism, actually of excellent journalism tout court, so I try to regularly read them.
But I live in Switzerland and not knowing Urdu, I didn’t recognize Abdul Rasheed Ghazi’s voice: I had heard it in an interview on YouTube, but he was speaking English, and the intonation was quite different from his singing poetry. Is the poem about the possibility of dying in the final assault on Lal Masjid?
Claude
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9B05FE49-BAF0-4D6E-BE73-800042CEF90D.htm
@IUNKNOWN @PM and all others in the Jamatee camp, its good that you brought that up, well I guess I can be the devils advocate if I choosed to, much like Sharifuddin Pirzada. But you know what, I am a firm believer of reality checks and keeping an eye on the history. This helps me to filter out hidden agenda’s, hollow rhetoric, self righteousness and oppotunist groups just waiting to cash on such opportunities by posting poems on the web. They have their own manifesto i.e. “Truth is what we say and make up. Death to this death to that, iska mutlab kya, uska mutlab kya, enforce, haraam, fight and die — and no arguments please, we dont need to justify what we are saying, we own God, just live with it.”
Infact, I dont see your leaders fighting with Ghazi’s or with the Justice, where were they man? I didnt see them. I can give this credit to Talibaan’s and Musharraf’s that, they have a clear stand and are slugging it out but your guys like to swim in mercy waters, like an alligator ready to snap. They can never mend or heal, let alone do something constructive.
To summarize,I dont mind being the devils advocate if the God’s camp looks like this :)
@IUNKNOWN Sorry, I once posted couple of names of Pakistani’s that I consider to be role models. I have a list of such people and sorry again, Ghazi Bros. are no where on that list. However, its obvious that, they are quite high on your’s, and thats your choice, so please leave it at that.
By the way when you guys are posting the whole book by Ghazi, title: “How I was marooned by my Brother & Bhaabi”
@Claude from Alps welcome to Himalayas. What we have in common are the beautiful mountains, but what you guys are missing are some men with long beards roaming your hills, being chased by trigger happy cow boys riding on drones, an ocassional shower of un-seen missiles, a village gowing up in smoke, a Mullah riding on a horse telling you how to live your life and an suicide bomber ready to embrace you.
Aahh! Life must be boring out there, you have my sympathies.
Hi, Kami
Actually the lady chief of Geneva police at one point proposed using a drone to watch “subversive activity” when there were demos against the G8 meeting in Evian. But you’re right, as her proposal was squashed.
Bantering apart, I sincerely hope that the reinstating of the CJ announces a peaceful democracy in Pakistan. A real democracy, where alliances with foreign powers are decided by the people, and are alliances, not bondings.
Best
Claude
Hi Claude,
We are on the road but still it will take some doing. To have a stable democratic order, you need to have continuation of electoral process and subsequent weakening of vested interest groups. This will take sometime, as the majority of our people are still under feudal influence, but things are changing, we will get there, this Justice case has really given a boost to the middle class, which now I blv getting more and more influential.
As for independent foreign policy, if there is such a thing in todays world hinges upon economic strength and ties. As our economy grows and there is less and less reliance on foreign aid or subsistance, we will see Pakistan break away from the bond and join an alliance. That too will take time, at this time what we need to avoid is chaos, we now have two pillars of democracy firmly in place i.e. an independent media and the courts, lets see if we can build on that.
Meantime here is something for you;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7br52GPJ-qk
Kami, it is strange that how you bracket people into groups and then base your arguments against that group. If I have to say in one line about all your ranting then simply I am not a Jamatee :).
@PM Glad to hear that. I am not a believer of name calling, it weakens your argument, but somehow I was forced into it, I apologize for that.
As for my ranting, thats the way I see the world and I am entitled to express my opinions, however twisted, but what I am not entitled to is forcing my beliefs onto others. As long as you disagree ,retort and argue its ok with me.
Just to remember what can be future of our dictator and his chemical tariq. Here is some info about why Saddam was executed.
He was charged by the Iraqi Special Tribunal with crimes committed against residents of Dujail in 1982
Specific charges included the murder of 148 people, torture of women and children and the illegal arrest of 399 others
See he was charged for the crime he committed in 1982 when he was darling of USA. He was charged for murder of 148 people which his own media reported other say there were several hundreds. He was charged for murdering women and children.
Just compare this with Red Mosque Massacre and then think of an independent Judiciary.
There is some future for Pakistan. Though I expect NATO and American army will have to help us.
@PM we have to be careful when we draw parallels from history. The parallel that you have drawn seems to be out of sync. Can you seriously compare cold blooded massacre of Kurds by Saddam to the Hafsa issue?, which un-raveled in front of eyes in the past four months. I will be glad to see someone going to court over this military action and see how the drama plays out. That would be the ultimate test of our judiciary and I am ok with that. In fact if that happens, we would be able to count ourselves as a mature nation.
To me personally at this point, Ghazi’s are more responsible for what happened to their institution and their innocent pupils than anybody else, I could be proven wrong by a court and that would be the most civilized way of changing my mind.
There is a video on YouTube with images of Ghazi and of the assault to Lal Masjid where the audio is Ghazi’s poem: The Lion of Lal Masjid. I found the link to it in the comments to Lal Masjid massacre, a poem translated in English. Is it the translation of Ghazi’s poem, please?
Thanks
Claude
Kami, this parallel is absolutely in sync, as a matter of fact it is very interesting parallel, let me correct you that Saddam was not hanged in case of Kurd’s massacre, this case was killing of people of Dujail who were perhaps shiites. Saddam was perhaps more liberal than the current pakistani rulers, as I say killer don’t have religion. In 1982 when he committed this crime the west (specially US) was mute and did not utter a single word of condemnation as a matter of fact at that time he was involved in war with Iran and US was supporting him just like it is supporting PM now. I do sincerely believe that Lal Masjid was a cold blooded massacre there are many people like me who may not have any sympathy towards Mullah fanatics just like there were many people at that time who had no sympathy with either Iran or Iraq but believed that Saddam committed a henious crime.
As far as proving you wrong by a court let me tell you there are many there who believe that Saddam never killed anybody in Dujail many still think he is innocent of even killing Kurds and the trail was just sham.
So again it is good to see that Pakistani courts are getting independent but it will take years and years for Pakistan to reach to the level when her court’s will issue orders to execute dictators after pulling their bodies out of their graves. This has happened in the history and history does repeat itself.
Correction ,lest you take it wrong , “killers don’t have any religion” means they could be from any religion or no religion. A killer is a killer whether he is Mullah Omer or Pervez Musharraf.
With hundreds of years of sustained democratic process U.S produced bush,i will take mush over bush anytime.Optimism is not a bad thing,but do you realy believe that a single decion by SC will set the stage for a blossiming dem in pakistan.I dont see a single politician or party that i can vote for with confidence.
TREETOP, amazing you think bush is only ‘product’ of sustained democratic process. do visit and read about U.S. you will know what does civilized nation means. though i’d agree U.S does not apply the same standard to uncivilized nations.
PM,i had a cursory glance at U.S. history a long time ago and i spent 12 years in U.S. its not bad, i had a good time while living on the wildside.U.S. is a victim of its own imaginations, there is nothing to go ga ga about.
now i’m stunned, you lived there for 12 years and you think democracy is all about bush and you would prefer mush a military dictator ruling over U.S. gimme a break sir.
PM you are trying to drag me toward inttellectual masterbation about democracy,i am not good at this art,please enlighten me.
@PM I do not suffer from denial of history syndrome, whether they be the genocides committed by Saddam, Hitler, Pinochett, Pak Army in Bangladesh, Sharia govt in Sudan, US in Vietnam, Spain in South America, Japan in South East Asia, Beslan killings by the Chechens or even ruthless extermination of jews in Madina by the Muslims and the list goes on
However, in all the above cases unarmed innocents were deliberately targeted and slaughtered. I don’t know how can that be compared to Hafsa, where a heavily armed group was involved in kidnapping, murder, intimidation, mutiny, armed combat killing none less than 10 highly trained soldiers with all the protective gear. Keeping the capital city hostage for more than six month, setting up a parallel government, Hafsa brigade left very little options for any one deciding their fate. For me the Hafsa guys will never be the innocent victims or super heroes. In the end it was a mass suicide by a cult. Sorry, that’s how I feel about it now, and have seen nothing to feel otherwise. I am now sick of debating this issue, so please don’t drag me into it.
Also, as much as I hate Bush and his catastrophic decision making, I am not the one that will blame US or any other power for our predicament. Whatever, the situation we find ourselves is primarily of our doing. After 60 years of independence we still don’t know why Pakistan was created?, What is the ideology of Pakistan?, Is there an ideology of Pakistan? What kind of system we want? In the future will be fighting on ethnic lines or will be divided between the ideological right or the liberal left?
One positive that I see is regarding the last question, I think we are moving towards a showdown between left and right. It would be interesting to see how things unfold. .
Oh I remember, what about dropping of Nuclear bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I don’t think that was an easy decision taken by a democratic government, Japan was warned of what was coming. Thousands died in seconds and nobody cried foul, nobody even asked for justification? Can you compare that with Hafsa? Aren’t we blowing things out of proportion?
Kami, no dictator or his followers ever claim or accept that they have committed genocide. All of the dictators are humans and it is very hard for a human to accept that they are ‘targetting’ and ’slaughtering’ ‘unarmed innocents’ ‘deliberately’.
I don’t myself want to be dragged into proving rights or wrongs in lal masjid issue. One problem I face while talking to EME (Enlightened Moderated Extremists) is that whoever says lal masjid was a massacre by pakistan army they think he is a fanatic mullah. You just accepted that pakistan army committed genocide in Bangladesh, but at that time whoever said that it has committed genocide in Operation Search Light he was actually considered an indian agent :).
BTW there is no showdown between left and right in Pakistan, Pakistan army like any fascist army will always try to safeguard it’s interest. They are going to make deals with real terrorist (AlQaeda) they can not fight in any case, they can kill only unarmed innocents. Look how hecticly they are trying to save the agreement with Local Talibans in Waziristan. They are not used to die in combat , in Kargil they ran as soon as their death toll started climbing , then in 2005 they agreed to withdraw from Waziristan as their death toll started rising.
You are living in fool paradise if you think there is any showdown between left and right, it is a local battle between two mafia groups. And no doubt U.S and NATO forces are thinking to take the matter into their hands as they are slowly realizing how pakistan army is making them fool.
KAMI you are the sensible one{no intentions to patronize you}.We dont need an idealogy for pakistan,simple logic and reasoning is good enough.
PM a good general does not go into a war that he cannot win.Lower caders of the pak army do not want to fight their own people,high command has realized that.Do not underestimate the strenth of pakistan army, its a mighty army,feel proud of it.
TREETOP, I am sorry but I feel ashamed of this army. There is no doubt it is a mighty army against unarmed bloody civilians whom it has conquered not once but five times now. I feel myself secure that I am not in Pakistan but I am concerned about several of my loved ones living in Pakistan. You have lived abroad and you’ll know what does it mean by feeling secure. I sincerely hope that the independant judiciary slowly and gradually would make it possible for people living there feel secure. At the moment I can just pray that my loved ones and in general all Pakistanis are not at wrong place at a wrong time, otherwise they might be butchered by this army as they have done so from baluchistan to waziristan and Islamabad numerous times.
PM it seems to me that you have a penchant for distorting the objective realities.I am by no means pro dictatorship,i wish for a utopian drmocratic pakistan.
Member of the armed forces are not from mars,they are the product of the same culture and breed as the rest of us.You have the right to demand high morals and ethics{proffesionalism}from them.But, if you look around and see how degenerate as a nation we are you will find that army still has higher values.
Your are making too much of your experience abroad{it seems to me your starstuck}.I have been to fareast,EU,and north and south america,i seldom had a problem of assimilation.I studied these cultures from the inside not looking from the outside.I had fun, i do not want to take away the good things they have but unlike you i was not overwhelmed.I am not an ultranationalist i like to the things in perspective and balance.
thank you
TREETOP agreed no ideology required, but there are quite a few trying to invent one, and impose it on others.
PM I will not justify any of the disastrous operations under taken by the military establishment, and will not exempt them of any responsibility for the malaise that plagues us today. Where I disagree, is that there is no left or right or other vested interest groups in our country. Remember General Akbar Khan and the Rawalpindi conspiracy case. He foolishly conspired to overthrow and establish a socialist order in the country and sought help from Faiz Ahmed Faiz and others, who had to endure jail & torture.
Since, independence and even before that there has been the landed gentry, the privileged few, the so called Muslim Leaguers who at any cost want to safeguard their lands and their interests, keep the haris illiterate, pay no taxes and get all the privileges. You live abroad and you know very well that you pay taxes and you get privileges, but here, the ones who don’t get VIP treatment and the tax payers line the roads. The fact that after 60 years of independence we have yet to tax the so called 80% of our economy speaks volumes about this fact. Today every major political party has Muslim Leaguers in droves; except for I guess Jamat-e-Islami and MQM.
As for the educated middle classes, the poor guys have been slugging it out at the universities and on the streets since 1947. The right symbolized by Jamaat-e-Islami aided by Muslim League and the left taken for a ride by the Peoples Party and both ultimately delivering them to the feudals, ofcourse under the careful watch of the military. The Bengali’s were different, they didn’t have any feudals and had socialist tendencies, they were in majority and they successfully broke off, again more good for our feudals - a threat removed.
Now I see another trend, the middle class in Karachi somehow sprouted into MQM, some might classify it as purely ethnic, but to me they are a middle class trying to break out and break the shakles and challenging the status quo, they are also trying to reach out, but the vested interests I believe feel threatened. Unfortunately, as they did in Bangladesh all political parties want to isolate them, surprisingly, this is the only point on which they agreed during APC, which is a folly and a very dangerous stance. The positive in the present Pakistan society, which I see is the growing middle class in Punjab, will this mushroom and reach out to the other Pakistanis and recognize their due share or will it be exploited by the vested groups? These are the questions whose answers will set the tone for the future of our country.
KAMI could not find a soft corner for MQM.All embracing punjab like other provinces is getting too nationalistic{punjabi} with every passing day.Not a good omen.
TREETOP being nationalistic is not bad, but not recognizing rights of others is, we are indeed a group of nations and as long as we recognize these entities and give each its due share then all will be ok. Not having a soft corner for MQM I can understand but isolating them like Awami League will be foolish. They are a product of very special circumstances and are capable of doing a lot of good as well as harm, not engaging them will be fool hardy, espeacially when none of the political parties is capable of providing a viable alternative to the people of Karachi.
Fuedals, Capitalists, Clergymen (mullahs), ultra rich individuals, beauracracy all these classes exist in most of the developed societies. There is only class which is not present in any civilized society is military beauracracy which exist in Pakistan. That reminds me of Aitzaz Ahsen comment about karachi rally that only additional factor in karachi was MQM :) and that caused havoc there on 12th may. Similarly only additional factor in Pakistan (and may be some other 3rd world countries) is military mafia , they have guns (oops tanks/missiles) in their hands and they cause havoc in pakistan.
Though it is very hard to argue with most of the poeple who are ‘brainwashed’ by military just like it is very hard to argue with ‘innocent’ students of Jamia Hafsa who were ‘brainwashed’ by mullahs. Yet when I saw so many people in Pakistan chanting slogans against army during the CJP procession I took heart that most of the Pakistanis are in fact ‘moderates’ just like most of the Pakistanis are in fact ‘moderates’ (as in context of religious fundamalism).
Kami, Treetop I believe this debate is not going to reach any conclusion. thanks for enlightening me with your comments.
regards
TREETOP I’ll ignore your personal comments for me but just to let you know I have been in US, Saudi/Pakistan and now in Europe for a long time of life. I have spent several years in each of those places , so don’t worry I have an insight into all these societies :).
@PM in fact it has reached a conclusion i.e. majority of the people of Pakistan are moderate. The only point of difference is setting of sole responsibility for the malaise on only one institution or group. On this I beg to disagree, however, its been a nice chat, thanks for your discourse, you certainly know your history.
I hope your brainwashing comment was not directed towards me :)
There is an interesting inter-village competition going on, nobody is picking up this story except for dawn;
http://dawn.com/2007/07/22/top7.htm
PM i appoligize for offending you.I usualy go on the tree top after 4 PM.
Please read the article in Urdu from following link
http://kashifhafeez.com/mazameen_large.php?path=2007-07-23&img=kh_articles/large/2007-07-23.gif
I think this below blog is worth reading as to how Justice Iftikhar exploited whole nation in the name of Justice.
http://aj-ka-pakistan.blogspot.com/2007/07/cj-iftikhar-case-historic-decisioin-or.html