Its Coming ….
Cupid’s arrows are growing in abundance in Pakistan lately. Don’t you feel so?? Even PTV’s going to celebrate St. Valentine’s Day all day long tomorrow. Almost every shop and restaurant is painted RED in Islamabad for this day. *Sigh* Some glimpses later tonight =)
= ?
Toon Courtesy: Today’s News
RED for what? and wat non sense we are into ?
our country is getting into a disaster and we are celebrating love day. how abt going to wazirstan on 15th feb and celebrating it there?
So that u ppl get teh taste of reality. Pait jub bhara hua ho tu aisa he khayyalat atey hain
cartoonist……….;)
I agreed with you IUnknown, this is not our day, where this come from ? Why we celebrate this?
Now if I start this topic will never end and may people start calling us Extremist eemmm I right.
So lets stop it here and just go to the link and find out where this day came from, and why its celebrating in Pakistan ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine’s_Day
On the other hand we do not mind if any other relegion do celebrate this day in Pakistan.
" Kuwwa Chela Hense ke Chaal Apny bhe Bhool gia "
@ WK: So this means anyone celebrating Valentines’ is a non-Muslim? I mean who gives you the right to declare or undeclare people Muslims etc.
You think entire Pakistan is inherently Wahabi, etc. You are wrong!
If we can celebrate Basant, Easter, Halloween, what is so wrong in dedicating a day to people who are in love?
And yeah, just in case you are wondering, I did send a Valentines’ card out… And it was to myself! I will get here tomorrow.
Living in sub continent for so long we are culturally and life style wise half-Hindu anyway. Too late to look for cultural purity now.
Mr. Phil Uncle,
Its okay, just relax I do not stamped anyone or declared that he is non muslim or muslim or what so ever.
Here is I am rephrase my sentense " On the other hand we do not mind if any other relegion do celebrate this day in Pakistan "
Mr. Phil here is the meanings, Valentine Can be celebrate in Pakistan but not by us " Muslims " but anyone else freely can take out his/her GF/BF, or any other relationship e.g YOU who send card to him self, I dont think anyone do mind your business or anyone else.
Dude uncle RELAX, no OFFENCE to you or anyone in this blog just trying to put my thoughts init.
And for your information I myself do attend though some time Basant, Easter, Halloween, Val. Day, B.Day etc etc…
Best Regards
@phil : please open the closed box of ur mind, before writting here. U seems to me , a anit islamic extremist.
BTW, Baasant is also non islamic,
@Self: very right. We have living widh kinda hindu culture
when are we going to stop blindly copying western culture and look at promote our own culture - every day should be a day for love and your husband/wife should not have to wait until 14th Feb to know it!
Christmas,New years, Halloween, Valentines in the western world is a consumer binge for big business - thats why they keep the fairy tales alive in the minds of little naive children…
and i think the cartoon is a disgusting charcature which can only have been done by someone who has no humanity… bigharat aadmi
MAJAD - Can you tell us what is "our culture" which needs to be "promoted"? Surely, you won’t call the Arabian culture (another imported one) as that of the Land of the Indus.
Cultures are never static; they evolve with time and acquire from other cultures. Let us not be so quick to target the western culture for nothing. Let people celebrate V-Day if they want to celebrate and let us not force it on those who don’t want to celebrate. Live and let live.
By the way, I like the cartoon. It is an apt depiction of what has been happening in our country. We have been drifting towards a world or duplicity; some days it is suicide-bombings, the other it is V-day. Variety is the flavour of life.
JAYJAY you nailed it dude! Culture is merely a term that reflects how people live. If you live in a village and hang around the chopaal and listen to the guy singing Waris Shah (which by the way for some is also un-islamic) then its your culture, and if you live in the city watch MTV and go to concerts, it’s a part of your culture. Similarly, if you enjoy attending Mehfil-e-Naat then again its part of your culture, nothing wrong with that either.
We are now living in an age of internet,media, satellite channels, open travel and people exchange, hence cultural isolation is impossible, hence the new term multi-culturelism, whereby people belonging to different races and cultural backgrounds live side by side enjoying each others cultural heritage including music, food, customs and dresses etc. that’s the way of the future.
Personally, I know I will never wear Dhoti and Kurta but would like to cling onto Heer Waris Shah and Iqbal Bano’s renditions of Faiz and that’s where I see a problem in our society, though we are accepting a lot of things from others but are loosing rapidly what we can offer in exchange. To rectify this we have to learn from other societies where opera tickets are as hot as popular concerts. We need to cherish our languages, music, poetry and arts and pass it onto the next generation.
Happy Valentine’s Day from Lahore
http://lahore.metblogs.com/archives/2008/02/form_lahore_wit.phtml
@All
FYI:
The Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them". [Narrated by Abu Dawood, 3512; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani]
Lets be only Muslims.
SHAIBEE I dare to contradict. Imitating is the primary learning tool of nature. Its how all mammals and other animals including humans learn to survive. Look at any child he imitates and learns. The same applies to civilizations; they learn and grow by imitating others. If imitation and adoption is not there, a society will inbred and go into decline. That’s why the most successful and advanced societies in history have been the sea faring / merchant societies (that includes Arabs in the middle ages), those are the ones open to new ideas and dare to travel & discover new avenues of thought.
let me assure you, if there were only Muslims, this world would be a very boring place.
By the way HAPPY VALENTINES DAY EVERYONE.
@KAMI
We should learn to ponder before we throw our words out. Its not all about DARING to contradict the saying of Prophet(SAW), its about seeing what it says.
It reads: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them".
It neither does prohibits imitating nor does it present any argument for or against imitation.
All it tells is if you follow the pattern of somebody, you are counted amongst them. Its upto you, if you follow a good pattern of a good people, you’ll be counted among good. And the same applies to bad pattern, or any pattern for that matter. Period.
"let me assure you, if there were only Muslims, this world would be a very boring place."
Again, I think you mis-read "Lets be only Muslims".
All I meant to say is that, being Muslims, lets only follow the pattern we are supposed to, and not that let all of non-muslims be converted to Muslims or something. Although that would be an ideal scenario :-) If you are a non-Muslim, you can ignore that line.
As of your boredom is concerned, thats a subjective matter, and deserves a discussion of its own.
Also, you are mixing three things here: Learning, Adoption & Imitation, of which Imitation has never caused a society to progress. Yes it takes a nation to such a decline that it looses its identity.
I wonder what makes you think this?
@ KAMI,
Same to you my friend Happy Valentines Day to you, : ), enjoy this day dude,
I or We do not bother any one who wants to celebrate what ever, so lets not fight here.
Examples from other part of our world:
2001-FEB-12: Right-wing Indian political group ordered to disrupt Valentine’s Day: Bal Thackeray, who heads the hard line Shiv Sena political party, ordered activists in his party to disrupt Valentine Day celebrations in Bombay. He considers the celebration to be a conspiracy by foreign companies to sell their products in India. Writing in his party paper, Samna, he stated: "This shameless festival has been celebrated by our young people for the last 10 years, but it is totally contrary to Indian culture. We should focus on good work, good thoughts, love and harmony in our society, and not let such Western culture spoil us." 5
2001-FEB-14: Riots in India: Some Fundamentalist Hindus rioted on Valentine’s Day. "Hard-line Hindus, bent on stopping love-struck couples from celebrating Valentine’s Day, went on a rampage…in many parts of the country, invading gift shops, burning cards and disrupting festivities." They denounced the holiday as a desecration of the country’s traditional culture. 6 "Members of the Shiv Sena party raged through restaurants and stores, smashing plants, tossing chairs, and threatening couples. ‘Down with Valentine’s Day!’ shouted activists. ‘We will not allow our culture to be polluted. Long live Hindu culture!’ " 7
2001-FEB-16: Police raids in Malaysia: Religious police from the Mawar Merah (a faith-based police enforcement group controlled by the government’s Islamic Affairs Department) carried out raids throughout the country on Valentine’s Day. 208 couples were arrested. Most of the charges were laid under Malaysia’s 1995 Crime Enactment Code. It prohibits "khalwat" — a situation in which persons other than spouses or blood relations in "any secluded place which may give rise to the suspicion that they are engaged in an immoral act." Sixty couples who were found kissing or cuddling were ordered to go for counseling. Their offenses were not judged to be as severe as those of the remaining couples
History & Reality of Valentine Day:
The history of Valentine’s
Ever wondered how all this fluffy nonsense started? TheSite.org takes a look at the truly twisted history of the Valentine’s tradition.
Your pagan roots are showing
Long before it was actually called Valentine’s Day, there was a good old pagan festival called Lupercalia. It was held in ancient Rome at the beginning of February to honour the god Pan and herald the arrival of Spring, and was associated with purification and fertility rituals. Sounds promising, eh?
During these rituals, goats and dogs were sacrificed, and young men were anointed with the blood. Then there was the usual feasting, raucous drinking, and so on, that we all know and love. Afterwards they had to run round and round the city slapping young women with strips of soggy goat flesh called Februa. Apparently this was welcomed as a blessing by the women as it was supposed to make them more fertile. Although the extra laundry probably wasn’t.
Another cracking tradition: after they’d run out of slabs of dripping goat corpses, the names of all the young women in the city were placed into a giant urn. Each young man in the neighbourhood waited in turn to take a random name out of the urn, and the couple would be paired up together for a year after a bit more feasting, eroticism, and sexual-game playing. This weird matchmaking often resulted in marriage.
Valentine by name
The early Christians decided to put a stop to all this unbridled eroticism and overt sexuality, and changed the festival to one of romantic love. The prudes. They grabbed hold of a fantastic public relations opportunity in the shape of Saint Valentine. The Catholic Church recognises at least three people called Valentine or Valentinus, who were martyred, so the Valentine story could be about any one of them, or indeed all of them. One legend says that Valentine was a priest or bishop who lived in third century Rome.
"The early Christians decided to put a stop to all this unbridled eroticism and overt sexuality, and changed the festival to one of romantic love. The prudes."
The ruler at the time, Emperor Claudius II, decided to outlaw marriage and engagement because he wanted more men for his armies, and the locals preferred to make love, not war. Valentine carried out many secret marriages, plus the occasional miracle, and was finally caught in the act and imprisoned.
Rumour has it that while incarcerated, he fell madly in love with the jailer’s daughter, who visited him often. One story says that he was beheaded, and the night before his execution, he sent his true love a note that he signed "from your Valentine." Other stories say that he just got sick and died in prison. Either way, it’s his fault for all those crappy cards.
British folklore and traditions
Back in the UK during the Middle Ages, February 14 was traditionally thought to be the day that all the birds paired up for the year. Mating season, in other words. There were many rituals carried out by young maidens who wanted to find out the name of the man they would marry.
The oldest known Valentine card still in existence probably dates back to 1415, and was written by Charles, Duke of Orleans to his wife while he was imprisoned in the Tower of London. They probably didn’t have a romantic meal later that evening.
Valentine’s Day celebrations in the UK began to be popular in the 16th or 17th century, and by the middle of the eighteenth century it was common for lovers and friends to exchange handwritten notes and gifts. The first manufactured cards became available at the end of the 18th century. And the rest, as they say, is history.
WOW! SHAIBEE you are good! And have a nice way of presenting your arguments. I now have a better understanding of where you are coming from, and retract quite few remarks from my last post but will stick to the jest of it. However, what you have said is highly subjective and open for debate, particularly the line;
being Muslims, lets only follow the pattern we are supposed to
That’s a very vague statement, and raises a lot of questions like: Is expression and celebration of "love" not a part of a Muslim pattern?
Who will decide what the Muslim pattern is? Is Arab Culture the only Muslim culture? What is appropriate Muslim pattern? For instance is it Burqa, Hijaab, Dupatta or none of the above? As Muslims are we allowed to kill all the males of a group who have surrendered un-conditionally, without a fight? More importantly who is the authority to make such interpretations?
As for imitation like it or not, it will happen, as the world comes closer & borders open, for good or for worse people will mimic each other, certain practices will live others will die out, no religion or patriarch can stop that, just like Communist party of China wasn’t able to hold its people inside those buttoned up coats, and they had a cultural revolution! Similarly East Europe couldn’t hide behind a wall.
By the way you guessed right, I gave up on my inherited faith a long time back.
WK thanks for the background on Valentines Day. It so happened that Christianity has Pagan origins the legend of Christ is straight out of the Egyptian Sun god , who sired a son via virgin birth, that son was blessed with miracles to cure people, was killed but rose from the dead. The same story is plastered all over the ancient Egyptian temples, much before Jesus. During the reign of Roman Emperor Constantine, the empire was falling apart there were too many faiths and too many gods and too much blood was being shed over them. So he got all his bishops and religious patriarchs to sit on a table and agree on one God and one story, all other pagan beliefs were put to the sword, so if Valentines Day has pagan roots then it all makes sense, you might find this interesting,
http://www.tomharpur.com/books/books_thepaganchrist.asp
@kami and @JAyjay : u two have been very well treated by @shaibee and @wk.
@kami have u ever looked at ur last comment,. How lame it was? @jayjay: tum tu ho he bay-suray. Jub boltay ho "atheist" boltay ho.
" Can you tell us what is "our culture" which needs to be "promoted"? Surely, you won’t call the Arabian culture (another imported one) as that of the Land of the Indus."
Our culture is the culture of modesty. Stop taunting arabs. I wonder if u have ever been taken to doctor for cure of ur retardation.
"Who will decide what the Muslim pattern is? Is Arab Culture the only Muslim culture? What is appropriate Muslim pattern? For instance is it Burqa, Hijaab, Dupatta or none of the above? As Muslims are we allowed to kill all the males of a group who have surrendered un-conditionally, without a fight? More importantly who is the authority to make such interpretations? "
Islam hasnt defined any specific set of clothing but rather kept it as general (thats the beauty of islam). Women must cover their
selves( doesnt matter if burqa,niqaab, wat ever)
Men are not restricted to wear shalwar-kameez but they and women shud wear such a dress which doesnt reveal their body.
"Cultures are never static; they evolve with time and acquire from other cultures. Let us not be so quick to target the western culture for nothing. Let people celebrate V-Day if they want to celebrate and let us not force it on those who don’t want to celebrate. Live and let live."
"We are now living in an age of internet,media, satellite channels, open travel and people exchange, hence cultural isolation is impossible, hence the new term multi-culturelism, whereby people belonging to different races and cultural backgrounds live side by side enjoying each others cultural heritage including music, food, customs and dresses etc. that’s the way of the future.
As for imitation like it or not, it will happen, as the world comes closer & borders open, for good or for worse people will mimic each other, certain practices will live others will die out, no religion or patriarch can stop that, just like Communist party of China wasn’t able to hold its people inside those buttoned up coats, and they had a cultural revolution! Similarly East Europe couldn’t hide behind a wall."
Ager tum ajj kapray pehan ker ghoom rahy ho tu thoray dino baad western culture ko immitate ker kay kapray utar ker ghomo gay????? Remember naturalists???
We can copy the cultures, but in certain limits. Like we are not allowed to weart shorts over knees but yeah "3-quater" is really good.
We can wear the skull fits made by addidas.
Wherever we are, we HAVE TO follow islam, if we are muslim.
@WK:Very very nice quote. This shows that we are the only nations perhaps who is going down n down. We feel shame in following our culture. Rest all are moving positively in terms of economy, agriculture, technology etc etc.
@WK: Very very nice quote. This shows that we are the only nations perhaps who is going down n down. We feel shame in following our culture. Rest all are moving positively in terms of economy, agriculture, technology etc etc.
And we think that progress is in being nude, celebrating valientines day, basant, holi and celebrating such other stupid stuff
Unknowing- Unfortunately, you have, again, fallen in for the fallacy of equating the West with nudity. Agreed that everyday dress of a western person might not conform to eastern standards but be assured that nobody walks around nude on the street in Europe or the US. You will appreciate that Hollywood does not depict the West just as Lollywood does not represent everyday Pakistan. Therefore, building impressions on the basis of unrealism only leads to half-truths and biases.
I personally would prefer to celebrate V-Day than caught following a philosophy which rejects pluralism, does not tolerate dissent and invokes violence on the grounds of self-righteousness - all in the name of God, which in itself is a mysterious notion. Any sensible person will know that celebrating an innocuous day hurts people more or the tsunami of terrorism be-set on the innocent for the supremacy of utopian ideals.
Shaibee - A culture or philosophy that is so jealous or protective (some might say vulnerable) that it stops its followers from "imitating" other people for the fear of them losing their identity can only be termed as imperialistic or worse. I don’t want to go any further on this point as Kami has already hammered in the point so immaculately.
@jayjayL its all abt beleifs. For some persons, this world is every thing and for some , there is one other world and there is some one , infront of whom u gona answer .
So if u want to celebrate, do it but this shud not be publicily celebrated in islamic country.
Islamic govt is responsible for controlling all such activities which go against shria.
Minorities are allowed to doo wat they want but again, they dont need to invite every one in the country to do that knowing that 90% of ppl dont confirm to their faith. They can invite their "chaddi friends", relatives etc
BTW, i have read the news that 22 chinese girls have been caught in the act of running adulty center in islamabad, mimicking it as MASSAGE CENTERE.
Now, this is wat Abdur Rasheed Ghazi wanted. But those bastards godless ppl never understood that time and now when elections are nearer, they are doing such activities to go votes. duh!!
IUNKNOWN I was hoping against hope that you wouldn’t jump into this, but alas if wishes were horses, Ahhhh!.
I was never good at "playing flute in front of a buffalo". I hate to admit that I have deliberately choose not to improve myself in that area, and its moments like these that I really regret making that choice.
Sometimes it’s good to listen, observe, study and develop a grasp of the subject before you speak on it. As they say in Urdu, "Jab baray baat kar rahey hoon tou beech mein nahein boltay" Sorry for being blunt, but that’s the best advice I can give you.
@KAMI
Thanks :) If we are onto the debate, then lets sit back, relax and write.
We are again mixing things up. Expression of love is one thing and imitation is another. Yes, these come together in the form of V Day, but that does not make it one, these are two things.
And by love, here I mean the love between opposite genders. If one talks about the love b/w son & mother, and bro n sis etc in relation to V Day, he is a duffer.
Lemme come to your questions and doubts one by one:
"Is expression and celebration of "love" not a part of a Muslim pattern?"
Islam, as far as I know, rather promotes the expression of love, but restricts it only for marriage purposes i.e. you can only express your love or likeness to a member of opposite gender if you plan to marry him/her. And expression of love is itself a proposal. Now its upon the discretion of the other party to accept or reject it. If accepted, congrats, get married n love as much as you want, if rejected, better luck next time, mind your own business. You can try to convince the other party but through proper channel, obv not by dating and sending cards and messages, talking whole night on ladies-first packages etc.
"Who will decide what the Muslim pattern is? "
That is decided. No one needed to decide.
"Is Arab Culture the only Muslim culture? "
NO. There is no such thing as a Muslim culture. Culture is local to a people, to a nation, to a country. Islam is a global message. Islam just defines limits. Any culture that is within the limits is Muslim culture. Any culture that is not, is non-Islamic.
"What is appropriate Muslim pattern? "
There is no appropriate and inappropriate Muslim pattern, there is only Muslim pattern.
"For instance is it Burqa, Hijaab, Dupatta or none of the above? "
That depends on what the Imam of your school of thought has decided. These people have spent their lives in the study of Deen, and you can trust them. E.g. Imam Abu Hanifa says its fine for a woman to leave her face open, whereas Imam Ahmed says, a woman should cover her face. Both are fine, provided that you follow any of these 100%. Not by picking what pleases you from one sect, and the other from other sect.
"As Muslims are we allowed to kill all the males of a group who have surrendered un-conditionally, without a fight? "
The question is a little out-of-context, but no, Islam does not allow this. Do you remember the conquest of Makkah? if you do, you know the answer. And if somebody did that, who happens to be a Muslim, Islam is not to be blamed for that, that is his personal act.
"More importantly who is the authority to make such interpretations?"
These are no more interpretations. These are established. And if there comes something to be interpreted, that is to be done by a scholar, or Mufti as we call him. Mufti Taqi Usmani is a good example.
"As for imitation like it or not, it will happen, as the world comes closer & borders open, for good or for worse people will mimic each other, certain practices will live others will die out, no religion or patriarch can stop that, just like Communist party of China wasn’t able to hold its people inside those buttoned up coats, and they had a cultural revolution! Similarly East Europe couldn’t hide behind a wall."
Yes you are right. I couldn’t find the link but sometime back Dr Muzaffar Iqbal did a great article on this. How strong civilizations eat-up weak civilizations? Also if you get time, give a read to Islam at the Crossroads, its a good book on the topic. There are many factors, economy being the most important one. But I disagree that Deen cannot stop it, it definitely can, but only if the followers are actually following it. We are not.
@ JayJay
You may need to read my last comment again. Did I say Islam prohibits imitation? Did I mention any reason?
I posted some pictures of Valentine’s Day in Islamabad on my website Pakistan Journal. You can check them at http://pakistanjournal.com
SHAIBEE its the week end and I have few errands to run, keep checking, I’ll post my reply as soon as I get a break.
"Sometimes it’s good to listen, observe, study and develop a grasp of the subject before you speak on it. As they say in Urdu, "Jab baray baat kar rahey hoon tou beech mein nahein boltay"
I know ur subject very well @kami. Thats why i dont bother giving u quraan and sunnat references.
I know all ur logic is very dumb and ur inspired by the western culture like the most of the persons in this world. Such persons also want to adopt western culture and persue others to do it.
So im telling u wat western culture is. The different wrappers wont make the shit, look like gold.
@shaibee: i appreciate ur efforts here. ALLAH apko is ka badla bhot acha dey ga. I have been reading the comments of @kami and @jayjay for almost an year and @jayjay is an atheist where as im not sure abt @kami.
U have to be very patient here while talking to them :)
@ IUnknown
Thanks :)
Shaibee - You have claimed the following:
"As Muslims are we allowed to kill all the males of a group who have surrendered un-conditionally, without a fight? "
"The question is a little out-of-context, but no, Islam does not allow this. Do you remember the conquest of Makkah? if you do, you know the answer. And if somebody did that, who happens to be a Muslim, Islam is not to be blamed for that, that is his personal act."
I am sure while making above claim you would have considered the treatment meted out to Bunu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe of Medina, who had surrendered unconditionally after being accused of treachery, although the accusation was highly controversial even according of early Muslim historians such as Ibn Ishaq.
You may want to refresh you knowledge of early Islamic history from Ibn Ishaq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_quraiza.htm
Also, although you first quoted the imitation hadis, later you seem to retract the thrust of the hadis by playing with words. Porbably it was not supporting your argument. Let me put it straight to you to remove ambiguities surrounding the question of imitation: Does Islam allow imitation of others to its followers?
who is ibn ishaq? never heard of him ever. Also, why u refer to this disgusting wikipedia for islam?
Such sites might be good for atheism but not for islam.
Regarding ur second question, whos immitation u r asking abt? Islam never says that u shud immitate kafir in terms of their way of living, rituals, etc etc. "which contradict widh islam"
Like ankle below knees, wearing tight dresses, etc etc. These are just examples.
Such things which contradict wid sharia are not allowed.
Yeah but i think ppl like u shud be treated by "Koras" as Umer (RA) did with one person who was asking such silly questin and was trying to spread fitna.
@ JayJay
I am still to read the Wikipedia article you provided, and before this I didn’t know about Bunu Qurayza, but the reason you have mentioned for their killing is enough for such a treatment, even if they surrendered afterwards. Treachery. That is enough. Do we still need to argue? Do you know the punishment for treachery in Pakistan Army, or any army for that matter? And there is no such thing as a controversy if it was commanded by Prophet (SAW), as he cannot do so unless he is sure about it. And if he is sure about it, there is nobody to doubt it.
As of imitation, no I do not retract. I stand for what I have said. Although I am no supporter of imitation neither do I agree with your claims for imitation, but in my last comment I just denied what you tried to deduce from what I said earlier.
As of the meaning of hadith, it is as simple as I said. Hadith itself just talks about what imitation mean to Islam. Period. Rest all is interpretation and application. If you imitate Kufar, that is obv not allowed, if you imitate Saaliheen, that is rather encouraged.
Hey guys wait a minute, there are quite a few things rolling around here. Personally, I don’t have any problem with religion if its practiced by individuals who are inclined to use their powers of persuation rather than work for imposition and enforcement.
SHAIBEE has said that you have to choose one sect or one Imam to follow and trust his/her scholar ship. Well that’s a very contentious issue, cant you be a Muslim and not belong to a sect? Because these Faqih are ordinary mortals and have been proven wrong on more than one occasion. Even Imam Abu Hanifa has said, " My two students have different opinion about my interpretation on a issue (masala)". Those were the times when Arab scholars debated issue’s like Imamat by a women and surprisingly the split was almost 50/50, and the issue was left un-decided as there was noimmediate requirement. That’s how different Fiqh were formed when students of these Imam’s, tried to put forward there take on issues, so new Fiqh formation is not all that bad, it shows that people are thinking and trying to use their brains.
As for present day Mufti’s you have mentioned Taqi Usmani, (back when I was a devout Muslim), I have had the pleasure of praying in his mosque and listen to his lectures/Khutbaa’s, the list also includes Dr. Israr Ahmed and even other leading Shia Ulema. So I have been around religious circles in search of some answers before I made the leap to the dark side. My point is, there are major difference of opinion on major issues even in one sect of faith.
In an un-divided India, faced with a very aggressive Christian missionary, The Ulema-e-Hind, led by Shiblee Nomani choose to sanitize / ignore certain aspects of history, which was recorded by professional honesty by Arab historians, who left nothing out. Take for instance events leading to Ghazwa-e-Badr, the history tells and Dr. Israr is a firm believer that Badr should not be taken as a defensive war, because it was the direct consequence of several bloody attacks by Mohajireen-e-Madina on many trade convoys destined for Mecca, Dr. Israr calls the events leading upto BADR as proactive Jihaad, and sees them as an example to follow, so here is your difference of opinion.
The out of context eference about Bani Quraiza was not without reason, that was a mojor stumbling block for me. I have talked to quite a few Muslim Scholars about it and the fact is, it happened just after KHANDAQ it is a major event in early Muslim history but has been conveniently set aside and not discussed. Ironically people like Osama draw inspiration from such events to promote their marauding ways.
Coming back to it, and looking at your take on it , for the first time I found you very unreasonable and hollow. Let me give you some facts about the event;
1/ Bani Quraiza were neutral during the conflict, so they cannot be traitors. They were not part of any Army.
Before them a couple of jewish tribes were forced to leave, their property and wealth confiscated. Those were the lucky ones because their Wali’s in Madina confronted the prophet and did not allow their murder, but the head of Khaiber was not that lucky he was publicly tortured to divulge the location of the treasure.
2/ Coming back, even if some of Bani Quraiza acted against the interests of the Muslims of Madina , those individual could have been punished, instead all males of the tribe including 12 year old kids were lined up on the side of a ditch, in the heart of Madina and 600-900 of them were slaughtered, their women, children and property distributed. Remember they did not fight nor did they raise their voice, that was a black day and that’s why it has been shoved under the rug. Believe me I have heard better justifications than yours ………. Go talk to Taqi Usmani and get his take on this.
And then there is the great paradox between what the holy books claim and what science have discovered, including the age of the earth, the arrival of man, the Christ and Noah’s legend. According to the holy books and Muslim Jewish and Christian scholars Adam landed on earth max 12,000 years ago and the earth is few thousand years older. We now know that more than one species of existed more than 100,000 years and the Earth is around 5 billion years old. It seems biblical math has some catching upto do.
All that said, people should have the right to choose their belief system but the lesson that civilization has learned over the course of history, is keep state and religion separate, that’s the only way forward, otherwise you will eventually end up with King, Millitary and Clergy nexus.
There is also a great misconception that Shia Faith is unified under one spiritual command, nothing could be far from true, and as a Shia you would have to choose from the following;
Najaf school does not interpret the Velayat-e-Faqih as meaning the direct intevention of religion in politics. The Najaf seminary’s view of the Velayat-e-Faqih is that of a supervisor and adviser. The Qom school believes the opposite, with Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, officially considered as the highest religious authority of the world’s Shias. Qom sees the direct involvement of clerics in state ruling and executive affairs as their legitimate right and moral obligation
Correction: " more than one species of humans existed around 100,000 years ago. The Earth is around 5 billion years old, and we can trace our genetic roots to Africa.
@kami: its sad o know that u changed ur beleif as u didnt get ur answer right? are u satisfied now? after changing religion?
Regarding ur question abt choosing or not choosing any sect, read "ap kay masail aur un ka haal (by maulana yousuf ludhianvi shaheed (RHA)). The first volume. He has clearly answered this question there. No need to argue here as we dont have enough knowledge of islam.
This Banu Quraiza isue needs to be explored in lot of detail. We neeed to study it deeeeply before making any statements. Nabi (SAW) knows better than us.
Regarding seperation of religion and state, i have alread said many many times that this is NOT the most stable way. During the rule of Umer (RA) , islam ruled the whole world (though physically it was half a world but i think there wasnt much abadi , other than that ). Was that a seperation of religion and state?
He has showed us the way and arab did follow him and taking the muslims at their peak from 800-1300 AD, providig foundation of modern sciences ( now dont say that they tok it from greeks. Continued and undocumented project is hell difficult than starting it from scratch (eve if it was started from scratch)).
Muslims were ruling every where at one time. And mind u there was no seperation of religion and state. YEAH but muslims’ downfall is due to seperation religion and state. Killing each other, etc etc..
Now, u might say taht europe has angraiz nay taraqi kerli hay by keeping seperate church and state . So there is no doubt that progress has been made but its so un stable that they now need people to work and their nation dont have enough number of people. Since they left reiligion, modesty left them as well. As a result, loss of family system, fahashi and other big problems resulted. Due to which , 90% of people are confined to drinking and girls. They dont do any thing other than that. Now u can clearly see that there are VERY few GORAY pppl to take care of the progress they have made. They are relying on asians ,africans etc etc more heavily.
I hope u r getting my point.
@ KAMI
Yes my dear brother, I can see that "The out of context reference about Bani Quraiza was not without reason" :) We were talking about V Day rite? :)
Anyway …
As I said, I have heard about it for the first time, lemme dig it a little more, and will get back.
It find it strange ("convenient" is another word that comes to one’s mind) that some of the strongest supporters of puritanical Islam at this forum are unaware of the massacre of Banu Quraiza. The gory incident was not brought up out of context; as clearly evident from my previous post it was brought up in relation to the Conquest of Mecca cited above by Shaibee as an example of tolerance. Anyway, were not we talking of the elements of tolerance and plurality concerning cultures when debating the acceptability of V-Day in contemporary Pakistani culture? Well, Banu Quraiza incident has some lessons for us all.
May I also suggest a title, "Muslims and Science" by Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy, to the poster who hankers for the Islamic glory of early Middle Ages. Reading, sometimes, helps in opening one’s mind and worldview, besides helping correct myths.
@JayJay:Tum waqai baray bay-suray ho. Pata nahi tum dimagh say sochtay ho ya kahan say?
Such massacre im sure would have been 100% right
as it must have been decision of Nabi (SAW). Wat he did was 100% right.
Craps like u doesnt worth talking abt it. I know its hobby of ppl like u to put such things out and make it CONTRAVERSAL..
Also, wat u think abt massacre of iraq, afghanistan, bajor ( where innocents women and children are being killed by "atheists") since their religion is "money". ??? Do u have any justification for that?
http://www.muslimheritage.com
The world accepts the muslim contribution in modern science and is thankfull for it.
U shud visit this site and it will help u alot in putting crap out of ur mind.
Chand aik login ki baikar batain such ko jhot nahi bana sakti. E.g. if u study stanley lane pool, he depicts muslims are lotaray etc. Where as whole world knows how humble they were to ordinary citizens.
I have more on muslim contribution in modern sciences. Do u want to see it?
IUNKNOWN who says that the Arabs did not contribute in the quest for knowledge by the human race. In fact during the middle Ages it was the Arabs who inspired by the Greeks kept the torch of knowledge alive and passed it back to Europeans. These Arab scientists not only dwelled on scientific theories but also openly dwelled on subjects such as existence of God and exchange ideas with their christian & jewish counterparts. The University of Faiz is a shining example.
For their contribution scientist and philosophers like Ibn-e-Sina and many others were duly termed as heritics / Kafirs and were forced to run for their lives.
fallen in for the fallacy of equating the West with nudity
yes, Kamasutra is actually a subcontinent innovation. *grin*
lol @adnan. dair ayed, drust ayed
@kami: tu yeh baat apnay cheelay @jayjay ko bhee batao na. us kay dimagh main bhus bhara hua hay
BTW, where is(or was) that university located?
google is not giving me good results.
There were many many books written by muslim scholars which were used as textbooks , in many subjects , in univserties till 1850 or so.
Hay Zameen-e-Qurtubah bhee deedah-e-muslim ka noor…
Zulmat-e-Europe main jo roshan thee misl-e-sham-e-toor [IQBAL]
i forgot to state that only muslims continued the work of greeks but they started their own as well and it was equal or more in proportion that continued work.
had muslims been there in place of greeks, im sure they would have retained their glory then, as well
IUNKNOWN it Fez not Faiz sorry for misspelling. Just Google Fez, here is a link too;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fes,_Morocco
yeah its in morocco. The place where abu-abdullah (boabdil) died after migrating from spain. There were a lot of universties in spain itself as well
@ KAMI & JayJay
Although Wikipedia is not supposed to be used as a history reference as its authenticity is not proven, but can you please take time to read the wikipedia article you provided for reference? Particulary the section titled "Battle of the Trench". Also, you talked about Ibn Ishaq, can you please take time and see what Ibn Ishaq has to say with reference to Banu Qurayza?
Remember one thing, whenever something is quoted out of context, it is mis-interpreted. Same goes true for Banu Qurayza.
Its not that they surrendered unconditionally and they were beheaded. To put the records straight, they were in agreement with Prophet(SAW) to not to side with the enemies of Prophet (SAW). And they were abiding by the agreement untill Huyayy ibn Akhtab persuaded the Qurayza chief Ka’b ibn Asad to help the Meccans, which was against the agreement. Ka’b initially hesitated but then agreed. Prophet (SAW) got the reports of this, and he sent his men to confirm the reports. The reports were confirmed. Even then, Prophet (SAW) didn’t went for war with them, untill Allah commanded him.
Once Prophet’s army surrounded their stronghold, and they had no option but to surrender, they did so. And this surrender was no reason to remove the punishment they have already earned not by breaking the agreement, but doing it secretly. Treachery as you called it. And if you read history they knew it in advance what will become of them if they deceived the Prophet(SAW). Prophet (SAW) was asked to give them some relief in punishment and he(SAW) appointed Sa’d ibn Mua’dh (RA) to decide the matter, who was accepted by both parties. And he repeated the punishment without any change. And nobody at the time when punishment was executed spoke against it. It was a norm rather at that time, meeting the betrayer this way.
And it was only the war-going men who were beheaded. History is witness to this. Women & Children were enslaved.
I hope we are clear on this.
And just to mind you, we were not discussing the trustworthiness of Holy Books, their compliance with Science or vice-versa, or any such thing. I think we are just getting of the track, no? That is a separate discussion in itself, and we can talk about that even on a separate thread. Even this was pretty out of context, but I went on with it, just to put the things straight.
@ KAMI & JayJay
Although Wikipedia is not supposed to be used as a history reference as its authenticity is not proven, but can you please take time to read the wikipedia article you provided for reference? Particulary the section titled "Battle of the Trench". Also, you talked about Ibn Ishaq, can you please take time and see what Ibn Ishaq has to say with reference to Banu Qurayza?
Remember one thing, whenever something is quoted out of context, it is mis-interpreted. Same goes true for Banu Qurayza.
Its not that they surrendered unconditionally and they were beheaded. To put the records straight, they were in agreement with Prophet(SAW) to not to side with the enemies of Prophet (SAW). And they were abiding by the agreement untill Huyayy ibn Akhtab persuaded the Qurayza chief Ka’b ibn Asad to help the Meccans, which was against the agreement. Ka’b initially hesitated but then agreed. Prophet (SAW) got the reports of this, and he sent his men to confirm the reports. The reports were confirmed. Even then, Prophet (SAW) didn’t went for war with them, untill Allah commanded him.
Once Prophet’s army surrounded their stronghold, and they had no option but to surrender, they did so. And this surrender was no reason to remove the punishment they have already earned not by breaking the agreement, but doing it secretly. Treachery as you called it. And if you read history they knew it in advance what will become of them if they deceived the Prophet(SAW). Prophet (SAW) was asked to give them some relief in punishment and he(SAW) appointed Sa’d ibn Mua’dh (RA) to decide the matter, who was accepted by both parties. And he repeated the punishment without any change. And nobody at the time when punishment was executed spoke against it. It was a norm rather at that time, meeting the betrayer this way.
And it was only the war-going men who were beheaded. History is witness to this. Women & Children were enslaved.
I hope we are clear on this.
And just to mind you, we were not discussing the trustworthiness of Holy Books, their compliance with Science or vice-versa, or any such thing. I think we are just getting of the track, no? That is a separate discussion in itself, and we can talk about that even on a separate thread. Even this was pretty out of context, but I went on with it, just to put the things straight.
@shaibee has hit a six on last ball :D
Shaibee I never quoted the Wikipidia article, I have never read it, JAYJAY has quoted it, my sources are different.However, since you mentioned it I have glanced through it.
OK I will not contradict any of the historical facts and will go by your account and that of the article:
1/ Where is the evidence of treachery? They were like grass under two fighting elephants.
2/ They helped out as much as they could, negotiated with both parties, wasn’t it a matter of survival for them?
3/ How could they trust the Prophet, when the other tribes were humiliated and sent packing.
4/ Did they practically participated during the hostilities?
Now lets say it was treachery and they were the guilty Party:
1/ How many of them would have been responsible for that treachery, the Chief plus five guys, 10 guys.
How come every adult male qualifies for maximum sentence? Couldn’t they go about killing 5 lashing 20 and penalizing others?
2/ You have brought in the custom of that time. My friend this event was unprecedented, for even Jahil Arab norms of that era.
Wasn’t the Prophet there to abolish all such customs? Wasn’t he the Compassionate? Where is the compassion here?
3/ The way they were slaughtered. All males, (accounts vary from 600-900) were made to stand alongside a ditch dug in the heart of Madina. They were stripped; those who had pubic hair were killed and dumped in the ditc, those who didn’t have pubes were an asset. How convenient and humane?
4/ I cannot contradict your "God’s Command Logic", I guess if God commanded it then it should be ok. Hence it proves that as a Muslim you can kill, unarmed men who surrender unconditionally, who have not killed, who you presume have acted against your interest. You can then enslave their women and children and gobble up their wealth and feel good about it for the rest of your lives, after all God commanded it to be done this way.
For others they were brave men who knowingly walked to their deaths so that their loved ones can be spared.
One more thing, if what was done was so logical and correct, then how come this event is shoved under the rug and sent to historian oblivion? This should be taught in our schools, madressah’s and to our Armies so that they could better understand the rules of engagement. How come except for very few (including ulema), nobody hasn’t even heard of Quraiza? In fact it should be ranked as a milestone along with Hijrat, Badr, Uhad, Khandak and Fatah-e-Mecca.
Its not only this, but there are quite a few other events that will come to you as a surprise, but I agree that it’s a Valentines Day post and we are way off road. Just catch up on your history mate and if you are brave enough, do question your faith. If not, then please never become a part of a movement that seeks imposition of one set of beliefs on others, because nobody knows the ultimate truth its all just a matter of faith. So be happy with yours and let others be happy with theirs as long as they don’t enter your personal space.
@kami: 3rd point never makes any sense.. It seems that it has been written by some racist historian. All of those historian are after muslims like any thing.
I will research on it and let u know the results but iam 10000% that we missing some thing and wat article has quoted is 95% wrong
Would u like to tell me ur references?
Since you insist, here are some of my references; Beside them there are many writings by mufti’s and Tafaseer’s, I have skipped those.
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 447:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 443
Sahi Bukhari: Book 019, Number 4370
Book 019, Number 4368:
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:
"Sirat e Rasulullah", by Ishaq, pge 466
"Sirat e Rasulullah" by Ishaq, pge 464
Tabari vol. 8, p. 34
Muslim: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 444:
Sunan Abu-Dawud-Book 38, No. 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
"I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair."
Book 14, Number 2665:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin: " No woman of Banu [tribe] Qurayzah was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah . . . was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? . . . I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. [Aisha] said: The man took her and beheaded her. [Aisha] said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed." (Abu Dawud)